Intuition Network lets users own and monetize their data

0:00I'm Ashen Addison from the Cryptocoin Show and today on Blockchain Interviews, we have Billy Lekkey, co-founder and CEO of Intuition. Here to talk about all things blockchain information on the blockchain. Uh, and information is so important nowadays because of all the craziness going on outside of the blockchain world, what's real, what's not, and also people's personal

0:21information, giving it away, selling it, taking advantage of it, so people become the product and providing a lot of information to companies and not really getting any money or value out of that as well. I feel like blockchain solves a lot of those. I'm excited to dive into that today with you, Billy. Thank you so much for taking the time. >> Thank you so much for having me. I am

0:40also excited to dive in. Let's do it. >> Definitely. Let's start with a high level on what you and your team have been working on at intuition, how it relates to information on the blockchain and then we can dive into those details. >> Yeah. So, so what we've been working on, um, it's aptly named intuition because it is an attempt to give all things

1:01people or machines better or or non-people, I guess, any entity better intuition in all of their interactions. And so, the way that you get good intuition about stuff is you get good data about it. So, you know, let's say you spend every day with your wife. You start collecting data about her through personal experience. And then when you go to interact with her,

1:22like you have a good intuition about how to how to interact and how she's going to respond when you say a specific thing. So, the the the thought behind all of this was, okay, how do we scale that? So, there's all of this information that's scattered across the web and there's all this information that's only in people's heads right now. like how can we how can we make use of

1:42you know like the world's aggregate intuition or like the world's aggregate data set. So, um, in order to do that, you kind of have to solve two things. And I won't go too deep down the rabbit hole right now, but one thing is, uh, you need to get the information from people saids out there. Uh, because a lot of it's unexpressed right now. So, you know, I've never written an Amazon

2:04review. I've never written a Yelp review, never done a LinkedIn endorsement, but if you ask me about stuff, I'll tell you. But, but we have to have a conversation. So, it's not super efficient. So, the data is not even out there for anyone to use for a lot of this stuff. it's it's only in our heads. Uh and then the other problem is there is a lot of good information out

2:20there, but it's kind of scattered all over the place. It's it's monopolized by the big tech giants. Like people aren't, you know, capturing any value from it. So it's like, okay, you know, the the two steps are get more information out there and then once the information's out there, don't capture it in the centralized silos of Amazon, Google, Yelp, whatever, storehouse, open,

2:39permissionless, decentralized knowledge graph that's kind of like universally accessible. it the data is all cleaned up so you can kind of see things across platforms and I think with that then you can kind of just get a you can get like a higher resolution of uh the world because you just have more information as you go to interact with anything whether that's buying a product or doing

3:01a swap or hiring someone or trying to invest in a project any decision that you're making you need you need information to make that decision and we just want to help people make good decisions is is really all it is >> definitely No, it's a great problem to solve because I feel like right now information it's also biased. You know, if you're talking about reviews, you

3:22know, only people that disagree or didn't like the product write a review and people that like it, they don't have time. They're either enjoying it or it's just too much effort. uh you know if you had a personalized AI to quickly ask you about something and it was convenient and that would log that and then have it in a a decentralized database that

3:39actually had sort of a true sense of what the information is on this product, not just the people that hated it. Uh that's one good example, but I feel like it's it's definitely I feel like these kind of review things and what this example is like we're going to look back on it uh in probably even a few years. Blockchain AI will come in and we'll be

3:59like, "Oh my god, that was like '9s stuff." Like that was old school. People used to manually write reviews. Um, so what do you think about the and and is this part of intuition with AI and how that's going to help shape it? Of course, blockchain and decentralized networks are important for storing the information, but inputting it and because I feel like right now with open

4:24AI and people using LLMs, that's also an issue with as you gave an example in the beginning about your wife, you know, the the AI starting to learn how we interact with it, but it's like it's a mess as well. >> 100%. Yeah. No, AI has been actually so so to take a step back when when when I started intuition the the actual goal was always I was I was a very early like

4:52beta chatgpt user >> um an open AAI user and I saw it coming I think a little bit earlier than most. I had some crazy conversations where like it was be I think they throttled it because early on I had some conversations where it was funny and witty and I was like oh my god this is sentient and I I saw this thing coming I was like okay you know if we view this

5:16as the collective conscious like that collective conscious needs this intuition module so so if we think of like you know we're collecting all of humanity's information inside the single artificial being like that thing needs intuition >> and the way it gets its intuition is we crowdsource our intuition and then give it to that. So that's actually where

5:37this all came from. And then I didn't expect things to move so fast and AI has actually been kind of like solving quite a lot of problems for us. So the tie-in for us with with AI is kind of multifaceted. So first I'll explain kind of how it helps us and then I'll explain kind of the arenas in which we're playing in the realm of AI. So how it helps us is one as you mentioned you

6:01know manually creating reviews probably going to feel very primitive in the future and it'll just kind of like be user action based and it's probably something running in the background and the AI is kind of interpreting different things they're doing and it's just kind of like posting this data to the intuition knowledge graph as opposed to you like manually typing out some long

6:21form review that just seems insane. So on the data creation side, it actually helps so much. And there's actually some we have a really cool community of developers. One of them just built this, it's kind of like Grass, but it just lives in your browser. It's called uh uh what the heck's it called? Um oh my god, Sophia. It's called Sophia. And it just

6:42takes all your web browsing activity and it it it transforms it into these semantic triples that you can then post to the intuition knowledge graph. So it like extracts relevant semantics from your activity as opposed to like taking all the data. There's probably some private stuff in there too. Like you don't want it you don't want it to see all the data. You want it to like

6:59extract relevant stuff and it extracts relevant stuff and then post it's pretty cool. So it helps on the data creation front and then on the data reading front you know we were always like okay what the heck does the interface for you know this intuition thing look like and the answer I think is increasingly becoming it just looks like chat like all it is

7:19is as you go to interact with the AI which I think is like kind of going to be the interface of the future the AI just has better intuition about who you are and your social graph or not even your social graph but the the people you trust in different contexts. So, it's like, >> uh, you know, >> I go to book a restaurant reservation. I'm not going to manually sift through

7:42the reviews. I'm just going to ask the AI, hey, can you book a dinner reservation on my behalf, and that's all I'm going to say. And it's be like, oh, I know you like sushi and you trust these people in the context of sushi. You haven't had it in a while, and they like this restaurant in your area. Now, you get like a really good response. So, that's kind of it. It kind of solves

8:01both the data in and the data out problem for us in a way that we were you know thinking for a long time about okay how how is this going to look and AI just came along and and I think solved a lot of it for us >> definitely and I'd love to dive into more on uh where it's at and in the near future the plans um maybe we could start with you know it sounds like you've been

8:25in this for a while being a beta user of chatbt and now understanding intuition building up over a few years into what it's become right now. Can you talk about how far you've come and sort of what are users capable of doing today or in the very near future? >> Yeah, so we've come we've come a long way from a crazy idea about crowdsourcing humanity's intuition to

8:48now having this protocol that is live and stable and has been used in production for a while. So I guess the the current state of things is we had we we were running our a beta of our protocol on base mainet with like real ETH. So it was it was handling real economic value for a while and then we had some partners who wanted to do like things that required you know tens of

9:11millions of transactions and it was going to be kind of cost prohibitive on base and so we're like okay you know let us prioritize the roll out of our own network. So we've got our own base L3 in test net now that's going to be going to mainet at the same time as our TGE. >> Cool. >> Um so that's the state of we have like three things. We have like our network

9:33and then we have the protocol. So the protocol gets deployed to the network and then we have kind of all this backend architecture that's offchain that kind of I don't want to go down this rabbit hole but like there there's pieces of intuition that need to live onchain and then there's pieces that need to live offchain and that are kind of like I call it like the rust subnet.

9:54The rust subnet takes the onchain stuff and the offchain stuff and smooshes it together into this one big knowledge graph. So all of this stuff is like we've been working on it for you know 3 years now and it's now just becoming production ready. Um we're just like comfortable with people building stuff on top of it. So you know the the foundation has now been laid and now

10:18it's a game of building the ecosystem getting developers to build stuff on top us building stuff on top ourselves. We have so many I think very exciting product ideas that you know like right now it probably doesn't make that much sense to people because all we have is this explorer where it's it's very generalized. It's not really an application experience. It's just like

10:37here's some data. You can create data in this graph if you want to. But now we're going to lean into like very specific use case centered things and I think it will start making a lot of sense to a lot of people very soon. So it's quite exciting. >> Yeah, definitely. And it it is a big feat organizing the world's intuition not just information but the information

10:59in their heads. Um and in the process of organizing that from what I saw with intuition there's it's called like knowledge graphs and in this case token curated knowledge graphs can maybe can explain that a little bit more in the information and then how it actually goes into the protocol and the network and becomes organized and then becomes usable.

11:21>> Yeah absolutely. So I guess to to frame knowledge graphs generally that that's kind of what you are using right now to interact with the internet. So like you could think like Google has a knowledge graph that's centralized and then they they put page rank in front of it and they let you search and and Facebook has a knowledge graph and like a so they have social graphs, they have

11:43interest graphs. It's like but the the superset is like knowledge graph. So they have it and then they let you find people, they let you find posts that you like. Like like all of the web is kind of built on top of this general concept. Um and so the thought is how can we how can we decouple that from the from the applications or the platforms and and

12:06have like one communal one because what you get when you have these like centralized knowledge graphs is they're not interoperable. So I can't take my Twitter following to Amazon. and and overlay the reviews with the people I trust and I can't take you know like things are the the whole web is just fragmented because >> it's not one big graph it's lots of

12:28little graphs and Tim Berners Lee who is actually the inventor of the worldwide web he wanted this thing called the semantic web which was just like the web as one big semantic graph and tried and they failed because they couldn't get people to conform to these standards because it's like okay the whole world needs to cooperate and agree on the standards. We can't do that. But now

12:51with crypto like the whole intuition is we can have distributed social consensus like we can use cryptoeconomics to come to distributed consensus on things. Let's use these cryptoeconomic incentives to come to consensus on those same standards that are required to do this like internet standardization effort. Um so so what intuition looks like under the hood is like it's like a

13:16cons it's two things. One it's like a consensus mechanism for the state of the state of decentralized systems. So right now we're coming to consensus on the state which is you know there is a ledger and it has this state and we all agreed this is the state. >> What we don't have is like one level one fractal above that where it's like okay what is the the state of the state like

13:38what what are the standards we're using? What are the schemas we're using to structure the data? Like we don't have cryptoeconomic incentives for that. So what if we applied the same primitives just one level higher up the stack and we can all start speaking the same language. It's pretty much a language game. It's like okay let's use cryptoeconomics to all speak the same

13:57language on on the internet and then things can be interoperable. So that's one piece of it and then the other piece is we take data and we break it down into these discrete ownable units called atoms. So atoms are kind of just like the basic building blocks of of the graph and then you can compose them into higher order structures. So you could think of it just like real life where

14:18you got like molecules and compounds and then people. So you take these little these little guys and you just build them up into whatever you want like higher order concepts and because you start with this like singular primitive that has each atom has a token. So you can now you can own data and you can own data structures because we've like broken the data down into these discrete

14:43tokenized ownable units. So as you contribute data to the graph you get tokens of the data you've created and now we know who owns what data. So we can create programmatic value flows through the data. So as the data gets used or interact with in any way, we can like the revenue to the people who >> data in the first place. I'll pause there because I'm say I've been talking

15:03a lot. >> Yeah. No, that that's a perfect segue um because I wanted to ask about that sort of the difference in everyone sort of understands from a high level that in decentralized networks and blockchain ideally if you're contributing information or data then you should own it or you should be able to earn from it. uh and whether it's some kind of value

15:24of of a cryptocurrency or some kind of internal token and uh in in perpetuity is always nice as well. So how does that work? Like could you walk me through if I was like for example myself I was a power user and I just what I'm doing uh maybe passively maybe actively in the data that I'm contributing to the network how how that works and then how I receive the value back.

15:49So, so how it works is it depends on the the interface through which you're doing the interacting. So, it depends on like the application and I'll I'll frame what it looks like with one example of what it could look like. I'll I'll use two examples just so we don't get locked into one. So, one example is you know intuition has now replaced the like button on YouTube. Uh so now you know a

16:15like on YouTube is just an attestation that you like the video. Amazing. So now let's say you watch the video and you see no like not many people have liked it yet. So you're an early liker of the video and then a million people come in and like it after you or a million people come in and watch it after you. Uh you make money for having liked the video early. So it can be as simple as

16:37the like button. And what you're doing is you're providing signal to you like to people and to YouTube that hey this video is worth consuming. So there's there's inherent value in the data you're creating. You're just not seeing the value. And now we can you know it's very simple like we just let you like capture some of the value from like >> the activity that the the data you

16:56create sees. Um another example is like you know Tik Tok. It's like okay you know I'm on Tik Tok and I'm curating the algorithm for me and for all of Tik Tok by liking things. >> It's like that is useful signal and that like the money from that signal is being captured by Tik Tok entirely. So, what if every Tik Tok like or every emoji reaction on Facebook or every comment or

17:21every review like we can just take all the actions we're doing on the internet right now and >> you can you can all you can look like you can look at every action as an attestation because all an attestation is is like something claiming something about something. So, it's like you know if I scroll on a web page the web page could claim hey Billy scrolled on the

17:41web page. If I like a tweet it's like hey Billy likes the tweet. If I do an emoji reaction, if I do a text message, it's all just at the stations like everything is that. So the way it what it looks like is the internet right now, but you know, maybe at the end of the week or at the end of the month if you're not a superpower user, it's like, hey, you have made $200 from your

18:05activity or $500 or something like that. >> Yeah. No, that's a great example that I think most people don't think of when they think I'm contributing to the internet and uh I'm getting value. Like they think like I have to write an article or I actually have to create a website page. But they don't realize that if you're uh like liking a YouTube video early on that is pushing the

18:29algorithm towards more people to watch it and and that YouTube video and YouTube are both making more money because every time you click other people click. So, you're really sending people to the video and you should be rewarded for that even though you just think I'm just liking the video because I like it, right? But there's actually value that you're creating from liking

18:49it. Um, so yeah, that's a great example. Um, and and that leads me to the next question of like sort of gaming the system. You know, people think early on, I'm sure it works out in the long term probably, but let's just say people think, okay, I can like videos or posts and make money. I'm just going to like everything. So, where's the quality of the data come in? And is that an issue

19:14of just like liking and commenting and sort of spamming information? >> Yeah. So, the quality comes from two places. So place number one is everything in the system cost like what you can think of as a gas fee. So just like okay think of this is totally permissionless and decentralized. If it was free we would just get cibble and dos attack to death and then the day one

19:39the whole thing would die. So anytime you have something that like is decentralized and permissionless you got to like pay some gas to do it. So there's some economic cost. So, no longer are the likes free. They cost a little bit. And you can also buy more likes. Like you you don't just get one like anymore. You can buy >> any arbitrary number of shares of

19:58anything. So, or tokens of anything. And so, you can take speculative economic bets on the relevancy of data as opposed to just being like one like. Maybe the application restricts you to one like, but you know, maybe some other application overlays that same information, let you buy more than one like. So um that's that's one piece of it is things cost money and for the end

20:21user it doesn't have to be this frictionful experience. So if you think about it it's like uh let's take YouTube and every every app has a premium service now. So, you know, you paid 20 bucks a month for Twitter, you paid I don't know how much for YouTube. I don't pay for it, but imagine YouTube says, "Hey, do you want to make money from your likes, you know, pay us $20 a

20:43month?" And now you can start making money on YouTube. >> Um, and in the background, they can just be handling all the the tokens and buying the tokens with the $20 a month. And maybe you run out at some point and they say, "Hey, you got a refill." just like you know AA right now where they say okay you know you have this limit and if you want more you can buy more so

21:02it's the same model it's just you can have the subscription model where all the crypto is abstracted away from the users they're just linking stuff they're paying a $5 a month subscription fee but behind the scenes that money is going towards purchasing the trust token and depositing the trust token on all these actions that they're doing. So that's

21:20that's one thing that combats it. Uh the second thing is what's so cool like this is my favorite part of intuition is when you when you abstract the data from the platform there's a lot of interesting overlapping concentric circles that that start to emerge. So like an example of this is I gave this before but I can take all my social graphs from all these different

21:46platforms and extract them from the platforms and overlay all data with my I call them trust graphs as opposed to social graphs because I might not know you but I might trust you like Dr. Huberman. I'm not his friend but I trust him. >> And then you can can have these contextual trust graphs where it's like I trust Dr. Huberman in the context of supplements and I trust Vitalic in the

22:08context of crypto. Um, so you can have these contextual trust graphs and then you can overlay the information with those and because now you have verifiable attribution of who's saying what, you've decoupled the identities from the platforms, it's like, okay, just give me the videos on YouTube that the people I trust have liked. >> So then you get rid of all the bots. Or

22:32you could say, you know, like give me all the videos where it's like people three degrees of separation away from me have liked them. Or you just you weight things accordingly. So it's very reputation based like you get this web of trustbased search where as opposed to like search searching for stuff being very generalized. Right now you can actually search for anything

22:53across the web using like you're now extracted trust graphs of who like >> who is saying what that you trust. >> Yeah. No, curating that information from the people that you trust is a lot more important than you know most of the time you're searching for something obscure and it's just from some nobody that has one post and it's like well this is all

23:15I can find you know so I'll go with it. But like who wrote that? Who knows you know? So and and with the you know interesting social graphs moving into trust graphs from what I understand the the token currency inside of the ecosystem also is the trust token. Can you talk a little bit about the crypto side and the token and how it functions within the ecosystem?

23:40>> Yeah. So in intuition you're basically you're putting your trust into things. So, so every interaction in the intuition system requires trust. So, anytime you go to like create or read any piece of data, you got to pay like trust token. So, in the in in the YouTube example, it's like you are putting your trust into the video. And so, like it's I think it's aptly named

24:06because you're just you're you're trusting things like you could put your trust into a person and you can put your trust into a product or a podcast or a book. So you're just trusting things and then as you trust things you get you know ownership of the things that you trust and then as other people also trust those things or as people you know read the data maybe they pay like a cost

24:28per query and it's like hey you know pay you pay 10 cents to do a AI prompt and the AI prompt traverses the data now we know who owns what data so we can flow that revenue to the people who own the data in the first place. So basically it's the native gas token of our network. So there's some fees there. It's the kind of protocol fee thing for our protocol. So you got

24:51to like every action has like a small protocol fee. That's how like the protocol and intuition self sustains is through those two mechanisms. And then like as you go to buy shares of data pretty much uh you know you got to you got to use trust to do that. And then we also have this concept of staking. So, you know, we've got like all this infrastructure that kind of needs to be

25:14maintained. So, you can stake and you can just normal staking stuff. So, you can stake to generate yield. Um, and yeah, like that's kind of what we've built. But again, it's, you know, it's not it's not a useless governance token. It's used for governance too, but like like that's just like an aside. But also, you're starting to see, you know, our whole ecosystem of developers like

25:39starting to build apps that also use trust. So, you know, we've got like >> oracles and we've got lending protocols and we've got like a bunch of things that are all starting to like adopt this trust token for their own thing. So, you can do a lot with it, but the core protocol stuff is like creating like putting your trust into the data that you care about.

25:58>> Definitely. And I completely understand how to, for example, you need to like a video to prevent the spam. And because it's a blockchain network, you need to process a microtransaction. Although it's very small amounts, if it was zero, then you could just be clicking all day and and mess with the system. There needs to be an inherent cost to doing

26:17any action. Uh, and then having part of that go into the sustainability of the protocol makes sense as well. So, and but and so you talked about staking there, but earlier you also talked about sort of abstracting all of the you know the crypto and the stuff that you know you don't have to confirm a transaction and figure out your wallet and all this like technical

26:37things that hopefully we can adopt this beyond cryptonative people to the whole the whole web you know which is a lot. um what's the the goal for expansion in sort of abstracting the crypton native stuff away and trying to get people that aren't in crypto involved in this as well? >> Yeah. My my whole goal is to like give this app like give an intuition app to

27:01my mom and be like hey mom like use this or or like send her a link to something on intuition and then from there she just red pulled on pulled on the experience and she doesn't need to know anything about crypto. She doesn't need to like she she's got her Coinbase, but it's like, "Hey, stay in Coinbase. You don't get the Metamas, you're going to get scammed." So, it's like if we're

27:22we're I think that a lot of the infrastructure to do that is it's getting there. It I'd I'd say it's like almost at the point for for mass adoption. I don't think it's quite there yet. So, I'd say maybe one more year of, you know, account abstraction and and smart wallets and pay masters and metatansactions and things like that. But we're like fast approaching this

27:43point where all of it can just very easily be abstracted away and there's a lot of amazing teams working on that infrastructure. Actually like my teamport from back in the day um this was like the first self- sovereign identity thing on Ethereum and uh we actually invented Metatransactions. Like I wasn't the one to do it but the team did it because basically it was the

28:03first thing where you would deploy kind of like a a proxy smart contract that would act as your identity just in case. So like you basically you need we were trying to do like identity onchain and so you needed some identifier to correlate the data to and we were like oh well it can't be an e like an EOA because you might need to rotate keys. >> So you need a you need a proxy like you

28:28need this was like the first versions of the smart contract wallets. It's like oh you need a smart contract wallet so you could rotate the keys for ownership in case you lose it or get hacked. And we had all these so cool social recovery things. Um, but to deploy the smart contract identity to Ethereum costs like $5 >> and we're like, "Holy how are we

28:46going to onboard the world if people have to pay $5 to create their ident?" Like the first step of the process is pay $5. We're like, there's way. So, we invented Metatransactions where it's like we had this server that would just like pay people's transactions for them and then open sourced it and it became this whole ecosystem of like, you know, gas sponsorship stuff. So, shout out.

29:09That's where a lot of this account abstraction stuff came from. >> Definitely. And I I'm excited that I feel like the floodgates are already opening just not just everyday retail users, but you know, the institutions and the ETFs and the treasuries and everything. They're getting involved. And then there's a lot of mind power going towards how can we make this

29:31easier and lower the barriers to entry so we can get our clients that are in the traditional financial world our our parents and grandparents to get in without them you know make it easy for them. So um yeah let's get that abstraction going. So between now and then and let's talk more in the in the near term for Q4 uh 2025 and the the launch. I know that Trust was just on

29:56Coin List and now it's launching uh to to the public. Can you talk about sort of the Q4? What's the plan right now and to the end of this year moving into 2026? >> Yeah. Yeah. So, the the plan is uh if you're watching this ahead of this, TGE is currently slated for October 15th, obviously kind of at the whim of of of the folks who help make that happen,

30:21like the exchanges. So please don't hold us to that date like like we have no we have no control but that's kind of our target. Uh coinciding with that will be mainet launch of our network mainet launch of our protocol mainet launch of like our backend. Um and from that point forward like there's there's it bifurcates. So basically just like the Ethereum foundation and consensus kind

30:43of bifurcated back in early Ethereum days where it's like Ethereum foundation focused on the Ethereum protocol. consensus started building all these apps like MetaMask and Infura and Truffle and stuff like that. So, the same thing's going to have to happen here where there's like the protocol is always going to need to be continued like someone needs to maintain the

31:02protocol and continue to evolve it. There's an infinite amount of work to do on that front. So we're probably going to as you know intuition people core core contributors a lot of core contributors will need to like maintain the protocol and the developer experience as opposed to like focusing on building you know specific apps on top. Like there's a lot of people

31:23already building specific apps on top. >> You know we we want to be less opinionated about that and just give developers the tools they need to be able to integrate this into whatever they're building. Um but at the same time we have some ideas that we really want to build ourselves and we don't want to have to be reliant on other people to build them. So we will also be focusing

31:44on the application layer and trying to get you know I I really want to use crypto every day. I've been in crypto since 2012. I have I I don't use crypto like I I I use it once every couple weeks to do a swap or like lend and borrow. It's like I've dedicated my whole life to this and I don't use it. Like it's absolutely insane. And maybe stable coins make it happen behind the

32:09scenes, but that's so uninteresting to me. Like I want crypto enabled apps that I use on a daily basis. So I want to build the first one of that where you know it's information related. I want to use it intuition to help me search for stuff, keep track of stuff that I come across, you know, just stuff like that. So that's kind of our plan is protocol

32:27evolution and application layer ev evolution. >> It's very cool, very exciting and uh best of luck moving into the October 15th date and then the the mainet launch of of all the protocol and as you were mentioning earlier about you know being the first to like a YouTube video uh because you're an early adopter. I think most people watching and the crypto

32:50holders are early adopter. They say we're all early, but to get into something like this early is also, you know, there's benefits as well to exploring this kind of stuff. Uh, so I'm going to check it out. I will leave a link to in the show notes to the site uh and the socials and more information so people can follow along. Uh, wishing you guys all the best and would love to have

33:09you back on when the mainet launches uh near the end of the year. And there there's so much more to do. you know, it's just the beginning as you said, making um abstracting it out and making all these applications and and integrating it actually into the web so everybody including our parents and grandparents can start trusting things and earning in crypto without even

33:30knowing it. >> Yeah, thank you Ashton. That was that was a perfect explainer and thank you so much for having me on. Um yeah, would love to do it again. This is great. Appreciate you having me.