GOAT Network enables yield generation on Bitcoin

0:01I'm Ashen Addison from the cryptocoin show and today on blockchain interviews we have Dylan kowallik the head of developer relations at Goat Network Dylan welcome to the show and thanks for taking the time thank you Ashton yeah I'm very excited to uh break down some Bitcoin right now yeah Bitcoin is uh All the Rage even the president is getting involved uh of the United States um

0:25talking at the uh upcoming Bitcoin conference that I know uh you and your team are going to be attending as well I feel like Bitcoin is in the spotlight for a lot of reasons not just because uh the Bitcoin ETF issuance at the beginning of the year has been the most successful in history not because institutions are continuing to buy billions of dollars worth um and also

0:47ethereum and the rest of the cryptocoins I feel like are next in line for that but Bitcoin specifically I feel like has a little bit of catching up to do because there's a lot of functionality that can be unlocked on the Bitcoin network uh with layer 2os with other uh ecosystems to potentially bring more functionality that um could tap into a a lot of extra value I feel like for

1:12Bitcoin and I think your team is playing a role in making that happen as well so I'd love to start off our conversation by just getting sort of a high level on what you and your team are building at Goat Network how that relates to bitcoin then we can dive into all the latest details yeah um so uh where to begin I mean it's you know it all started with the bit VM

1:36white paper I I'd say we we started from like the how is it that we can improve um like actual sustainability on ethereum because we have wrapped Bitcoins and we're you know doing a lot of things with Bitcoin nowadays but you know it it it it the the asset themselves they have to stay and they have to defragmentize themselves right we have to we have to get through this

2:01problem of having FR fragmented liquid liquidity all over the place and so Bitcoin being a super hard asset being an extremely secure asset and also just being something that anyone can rely on as far as like being a money supply um well if you do like a stake of some kind you're going to want to do a stake of an an like a very extremely hard asset and

2:26so the differences be between us and I would say others it kind of dives into this realm of like how secure is the Bitcoin if we have it at any point um offchain onchain we think a lot on this topic um on building an architecture that will suit the needs for the average um Staker the the holder you know they they want to make sure that their asset is uh is kept tight so that that that's

2:55uh sort of the approach but again we all start from Bitcoin scripting we start from there and we move our way up um through many many uh different uh you know systems and how can the the ecosystem increase the liquidity lower the fragmentation of Bitcoin to make it more efficient well um to make it more efficient uh go in our Network and

3:24really the the team behind you know um a lot of the Innovations in the space like with medic and they they uh they actually said hey let's instead let's make a decentralized sequencer let's go all in on how we stake to bitcoin itself rather than having to offload a SE separate deposit address or doing anything when it comes to like offchain indexing of some sort of like wallet

3:50where the bridge is completely in uh you know in control uh between uh two trusted actors it's like well we needed to decentralize the stake right and have as many sequencers indexing and sequencing to and from Bitcoin um and there we can create a onetoone asset type with Bitcoin that's then an ethereum compatible token similar to like a bond like if you're going to be

4:15issued something I'm going to IOU later but because you're staking to a uh like a record effectively like on bitcoin since it's a record chain we can add in these scripts thanks to the way that bit VM has sort of laid out this um uh this methodology I'd say and then we we do as many uh Security checks as far as how is it that we're actually maintaining the uh the stake itself on

4:45bitcoin without centralizing the point of control for all of the stake right instead of one trusted actor there's many decentralized trusted actors that have what's you know instead of like a consensus um they have they a shared sequence that is staked and it and the stake is pretty high about 100 uh Bitcoin but we're serious you know it's you can't just do this with a little

5:10little tiny bit um you have to make sure that uh people are not going to be incentivized to go against uh the network and so we we look at it on this level between decentralized sequencers Bitcoin that then can bridge over to our ethereum layer to that is a GU module so I hope that sort of explains the connection there between a Bitcoin sequencing system and sets of systems

5:36that go into what's what goat doing yeah goat goat isn't a layer to ethereum token you know like it's an ecosystem which is a great choice because we get to have a lot of ease of use with ethereum and it's ethereum all the way ethereum we're very bullish on ethereum too so yeah no I'm I'm also very bullish in anticipating the launch of the ethereum ETF potentially and I they feel

6:01like they keep pushing the date back but supposed to be could be this week could be this quarter I feel like eventually here it's it's inevitable at this point it's just a matter of uh when it happens and I feel like that's going to get institutions more interested in the layer twos as well um yeah that's a good point like I I think the the interest around uh

6:22Bitcoin is like the highest for most institutional investors especially for a lot of users especially for Global activity if we want to have like Global peer-to-peer like systems uh we also want to make sure that we can play with those peer-to-peer systems in other ways such as gamei such as you know defi such as automated marketplaces like we want to be able to use the real money supply

6:45or the real digital money supply and then be able to securely use that asset in other ways um and we also want to make sure that we're delivering a sustainable yield to those protocols it's much different than just saying that it's a token it's it's better to say that hey now your assets have this sustainable yield continuously coming in and so users and sequencers are rewarded

7:11alike for that because Bitcoin is consistent there are still 3 million tokens to be mind um there is a long history that has happened and then there is a even longer history history to happen so it's what makes Bitcoin such a great option for staking to then solidify and secure a network through decentralized sequencers whereby we create and Min and make asset that is

7:36Bitcoin on go and I I still haven't asked the team did we name it because it's the greatest of all time it's a good idea and it's like a great it's a great you know it's a great um it's a great it's a great idea and and and there's other teams that working on the same problem too so I'm excited about what other people actually come up with and how they do it we just think that

7:58sustainable yields and secure decentralized sequencing is the better approach to staking an ethereum node to a Bitcoin uh Ledger no I definitely think decentralized sequencing is the way to go and you mentioned your team how long have you and your team been working on this now and where sort of exactly are you at in terms of where you're hop to be well um for as long as I known the

8:28team um the this this project actually goes way further back than uh than others um lots of the team they they had built a lot of the technology uh in and around like have you've ever heard of the zkm network they focused on how do we build a zero knowledge virtual machine first whereby we can create a approver network that is similar to uh what we see what's going on which um I I

8:55played a lot with you know doing some systems engineering for Alo and and uh and and had also been doing a lot of things with um like te supports and these sort of ABS systems that are like sort of these trusted confidential ledgers or offchain working environments that generate these zero knowledge proofs that can then pass them between prover and verifier networks and so this

9:19is a great uh setup where we can have a proof system now that is entangling our rollup with other blockchain so this technology is the back end to the back end of our Network and the network of uh optimistic rollup also connecting to other Layer Two rollups is the Supreme idea of connecting all Layer Two rollups within an entangled rollup scheme

9:46through this prover Network that can generate and verify proofs across all these chains using this zero knowledge virtual machine so that's the stuff that I'm really looking forward to stuff is like Cosmos that stuff can be that stuff can be really anything because of the myips prover so that's just like a little bit of an Insight on how far the team has come from because that is the

10:10thing that's being instilled into this system so Layer Two Bitcoin you know go right the the what is this new Layer Two for ethereum is I think the open question it's like well it's an entangled rollup system that is connected to ethereum but it's stake to bitcoin through a decentralized sequencing Network and then we secure the stake of the network through Bitcoin

10:32but we get you the really the flexibility of ethereum and then you get the uh fairness the cheapness right like the the useability of an optimistic rollup so using our optimistic challenging uh system which basically always keeps everybody in check so that way the sequencers are not incentivized uh to collude so it's a very uh you know big Bitcoin over here got a big L2 over

10:56here and you got a lot of connections through approver Network so you have this very um large scale Network it's taken years I think uh for the team really of many teams uh coming together having a great idea talking to a lot of Partners and then saying yep it's time it's time to it's time to put Bitcoin on full blast and see where we can take this and um ethereum is the answer right

11:20ethereum is not going anywhere um ethereum is extremely flexible for the everyday user everyday developer in so many different ecosystems around the world so it's it's a great it's a great option um there's going to be other ones like in salana um but that's why we have the prover Network so we can be in salana or we could be in Cosmos let's let's have a unified um you know layer

11:45too in this sense and and and this is the long-term Vision so as far as goat is concerned it's been around not that long um but we've been busy at work for a long long time yeah no it's great insights and with staking Bitcoin to help secure other networks as well you mentioned about sustainable yields you know um when you're looking at sustainable yields with goat from what I

12:13understand you're staking Bitcoin but you're not necessarily receiving the yields in Bitcoin or which assets are potential the potential to receive that yield in yeah so it creates a new yield generating opport Unity for the Bitcoin holder um so I I want to start from that perspective so the uh the holder and to answer your question like how is it that

12:38we generate a sustainable yield um is a tough question um you know we have a really talented um uh Team of advisers uh that are effectively like really kind of laying out the ground floor right now and a lot of the details we're going to be releasing um in in in very very soon um it's actually on our uh website but I've actually been uh with the team for

13:06uh probably less than a week now actually so I don't want to speak more than I know of but from from what I can see is is that there's a sustainable yield because of um how it is uh uh effectively being staked to the Bitcoin script and then we are submitting and generating proofs to the bit VM script whereby we are effectively doing our commitment and SLE ements between our

13:30prover and then the Bitcoin verifier so um there is a prover verifier relationship between the decentralized sequencer and then the Bitcoin stake that they have to that script and now that is the sequencer who has to then stake now as far as the user is concerned they would just stake goat BTC to then a sequencer whereby then the sequencer is then generating a yield on

13:54that Bitcoin um and then returning in the form of goat and then creating other like Bond assets like what we say is ybtc and these other Primitives that are then being created so that we have a onetoone relationship with Bitcoin to every goat BTC token and then we have bonded and yield assets that are then minted there through and you can stake your Bitcoin Layer Two directly to the

14:22network and then you can have the ability to withdraw it um at a faster time period to get either YB ybtc token or and then the other way is is that of course you just as the user you're staking directly to the sequencer and thereby there's a lockup period and uh and then how much you're earning from uh the shared sequencer basically generating proofs uh for the layer 2

14:47Network so as often as a layer two Network submits proofs to a layer one in this case with Layer Two to a layer ethereum uh you know relationship of these like fraud proofs that we see from like optimistic rollups or validity proofs and so on um the the proof submission is the reward also on that return so um as often as ethereum is being used is the amount in which

15:11generated yield then is ured um so this this is uh I'm going to get too financy and techy if I keep going down this route but effectively you get to stake to a sequencer or you get to stake to the network and then either case is Bitcoin and you bridge your Bitcoin first if you want to bridge and then deposit for a quick withdrawal where you can directly do it through Bitcoin and

15:33then you can do it the sequencer and generate your yields this way now building a Dap on this is the combination of both of these ideas where you have deposited Bitcoin and restak you know uh these Bitcoin goat assets to then generate these ybtc yields which are being created and minted on the network for a sustainable um long-term uh uh yield generation so this is this

15:57is my understanding of where it can go right um and uh we're looking for really talented of course protocol Engineers who want to start openly thinking about well how how do we make a generated you know sustainable bit Bitcoin yield uh in our applications because like if I have an automated Marketplace I would love to offer a greater return on on their uh on

16:20their lend if espe if I'm a right if I'm a I want to be able to offer borrowers uh more than what they originally lent me um so this this is the idea that we're um that we're requesting you know developers and us um have open conversations about like how do we improve daps and making them all sustainable and I know many projects out there want to understand um sustainable

16:45uh drivers uh in Bitcoin especially in ethereum like um like vchain you know they they they they highly promote the idea of um sustainable you know Ecom driven um you know very green you know uh carbon tax credits right if we want to be able to build these new sustainable markets what's a reliable Market well Bitcoin is a very reliable money market actually so

17:11we can actually create these protocols that have these sustainable driving activities like a dow that is doing something for the Earth or doing something for a public good or a community or a defi project or a game that's that's the that's the future that we can start seeing happening with Bitcoin layer too yeah no it's very exciting and and I appreciate that

17:34differentiation and I I understand yeah there's two ways to go about it and that you can do more long-term strategies and and obviously you know the longer that you go in the the potential to be rewarded more if you're just looking to put it in for a short amount of time um it helps but it's not I feel like smart investors in Bitcoin are the smartest

17:56ones are in for multi- year investment Horizons if not multi- deade investment Horizons we're still so early as you mentioned at the beginning we've had a great history of of Bitcoin in the past 15 years but even the amount of Supply is going to be trickling in for the next 120 years and then after that there will still be uh miners mining for fees and

18:21and Beyond hopefully thousands of years um so we're really at the very beginning um what what do you think about the Readiness for Bitcoin layer 2 to reach the large early adopters you know because of the the ETF issuers we've seen a lot of new entrance that have more Capital come into Bitcoin this year um and also there's a lot of people that have had

18:49Bitcoin for the past 15 years that are looking for utilization or functionality of some sort do you think a large percentage of those would be interested in getting on to a layer two like goat absolutely I think most people want to learn how to spend money in different ways and they want new uh methods of generating a yield and I think this interests most people uh but like just

19:16like when you started using crypto it's always scary you know to open your first wallet and to to do things with your Bitcoin and so like there's there's a lot of um there's a lot of these new systems that are going to be coming out and I would just highly advise that you know before you uh invest in anything right like this is not Financial advice but if you're going to invest in

19:42anything make sure that 100% your Bitcoin is secure uh make sure that you have you know enough assurances with the people that you're you know that you're especially sending your money to um like you don't want to send your money to a to a wallet that's just going to like self stake for you it does that doesn't make any sense like it's like if you're

20:02going to do a simple swap well it's like you're of course trusting an offchain server but but in this case in this offchain manner you're going to be sending not to one address in our case you're sending to a decentralized sequencer that anyone can sign up for and then host our Network and then you can always assure that they are not incentivized to create a fraud proof

20:25that is going to double sign or attack the network because they have a 100 and even more Bitcoin um uh stake to the network so you you want those assurances that every consensus protocol offers like a proof of stake um where the stakes are actually High uh where the stakes are are are of risk to no one else other than the sequencers and your deposit alone exists though on ethereum

20:52is a Bitcoin um yes your Bitcoin is being staked in this case by a sequence quc ER and you as the user have one or two options do I as the investor need to invest on a yield generating um yield bearing in you know interest in this case uh or am I going to just invest on like just uh any token and and see you know whatever comes out of it it's like

21:21well I I separate it into are you going to just get any token or are you going to use Bitcoin which is the hardest asset that has a long long livelihood of being used and being utilized well um and if you believe in the Bitcoin Network um it's it's really important to know that Bitcoin has always had smart contracts bit VM is just a methodology of creating creating scripts in which

21:46your assets are used for very specific hash time lock and the hash of a time lock allows the contract on another Network to sequence events from the Bitcoin Network to another Network so Bitcoin can be used in the very very similar way where the Bitcoin doesn't necessarily move out of your control you're staking you have the ability to unstake with a hash time lock and that

22:15hash time lock is determined by the Bitcoin script which is on the Bitcoin Network so there's no fooling Bitcoin unless you can fool every Miner which is yet to be proven so I I would challenge the hacker uh please uh please Bitcoin but you won't because the The Challenge and the the mathematics behind physically is it possible um you know we're we we are open and curious about

22:39the ideas of quantum resistance in Bitcoin but uh still yet again like you're you're going to have to find the nons of every of every new difficulty Target across every single new block um within a very specific time frame um so if you don't understand the Bitcoin security protocol which is our proof of work was designed and why Bitcoin is still the same Bitcoin that it's been

23:03since it's you know been created it's been having improvements lightning network was an improvement to a Bitcoin node and then there were other improvements and so now Layer Two is the Improvement thereby using scripts to then make an improvement of the token itself now the token doesn't move away from Bitcoin the the token is used in scripts on bitcoin sequenced by other

23:28operator who then make promises that are either centralized or decentralized in our case is decentralized and thereby there is a consensus in a sense to ethereum and then to the stake of Bitcoin where the highest of risk which is 100 Bitcoin which I think ethereum is what 33 now ethereum so the the risk must be uh very high by many decentralized provs sorry

23:56in this case sequencers who are proving and verifying between each other through optimistic challenges is did you sign correctly and if you sign correctly Bitcoin can act as a very great validity layer which it is because it's a record chain and we can post these records that hey we're actually producing improving blocks and submitting our batch proofs

24:16you know to the system called a Bitcoin and if you just externally look at Bitcoin as is it a good enough safety protocol for us to stake our Network stake of I would I would agree and and I would I would immediately Mark that as saying yes that's that's probably the better idea because the risk is higher because the asset is a digital is the digital money supply um and it's the

24:37most decentralized money supply so um we we you know we're out here trying to figure out what do the Bitcoin Community uh what do they want right now now that we have your asset on bitcoin we can do scripts on bitcoin where else can we go with this we we sped up Bitcoin uh we can do other things such as zero knowledge proofs we we proved this through zcash and you know there was

24:59iterations through Monero I worked with teams from discret Labs that took it even further where they bridged a zkm utxo to a ZK evm um uh and so these these ideas uh can extend the range of uh of not only ethereum but also of Bitcoin very interesting Dylan and if I say I had a small amount of Bitcoin in a

25:28cold store storage wallet I wanted to get started in staking and exploring through goat Network how can I get started uh well wait for our campaign uh we're we're going live with our test net pretty soon so I'm going to encourage that most people uh you know uh try it out it's a it's an evm it's a getn you can write all your contracts in solidity uh it's super easy to launch um you know

25:53we have uh you can launch it through remix hard hat uh use all of your favorite tools we're going to be having a an RPC like an endpoint that uh should be openly accessible uh ready and available soon so that you can start sequencing and effectively mining uh the the network because uh we're interested to see what people can do for defi mining now that they have an entire

26:16Bitcoin protocol at their fingertips so um when can you get access to it as soon as uh as soon as you're ready um we're we're having Communications right now with a whole bunch of teams so um there's no time like present right soin and is there a a a social platform that's more predominant on where uh developers and and and users can find out about more about it and also when it

26:42gets released they can figure it out right away yeah um goat. network uh that's our website um we're going to be pushing A lot of documentation and updates there you can subscribe to a newsletter uh also to some like our well our Twitter is out there um our Twitter we have it at uh here I I I found it goat. network if you just look up I think it's goat

27:07Network all capital yeah goat rollup so g a t rollup uh that's our Twitter we're going to be posting a lot of new updates there too and then we're also going to be formulating this is this is where I come in uh going to be making that you know that Bitcoin community on Discord we're going to go for Discord there's going to be a telegram so um we're still

27:27growing uh it's still early so you're not late and would love to work with you and would love to uh to see what your ideas are amazing Dylan and I love to be early and I think the viewers love to be early as well um and this sounds like uh an incredible technology uh and technological update for for Bitcoin with a lot of potential so I'm excited to follow along with the team and see uh

27:51how it develops uh I will leave the link to the go Network site and and the Twitter and the socials uh in the show notes below as well wishing you and your team all the best on this and I would love to follow up in the near future when you guys are at the next stage yeah thank you Ashton we're um we're uh probably planned it's for later this year I'll have more details for

28:13everybody but uh uh thank you so much for your time um and really uh really really enjoy this conversation