Shane Molidor on building trustworthy blockchain projects with Forgd

0:01I'm Ashton Addison from the Cryptocoin Show and today on blockchain interviews we have Shane Maldor, CEO and founder of Forged. Shane, welcome to the show and thanks for taking the time. >> Of course, Ashton, thanks for having me on. Yeah, excited to dive into all stages of uh crypto projects, whether they're pre-TGE, focusing on the tokconomics, ensuring successful

0:22launches or post, keeping that up in the markets, not just managing the company, the community, the token, the markets, everything. I know you and the team at Forge have been working on all aspects, an endto-end advisory, and excited to dive into that today. I know you have an extensive background in blockchain as well. I'd love to kick it off by just

0:42hearing a little bit on your background in tech and blockchain and how that came to starting Forged and then we can dive into all the details. >> Sure. Um, yeah, I've been working in web 3 professionally for 10 years now. I would say I have more of like a capital markets background within web 3. So, just prior to founding forged, I was the CEO of a major centralized exchange um

1:05based uh overseas in Singapore. Uh, that exchange was Ascendex. Um, I started there as head of business development. Uh, did a big fund raise, operated as chief revenue officer, and then eventually transitioned as a CEO overseeing all aspects of like front office, back office development. Um, prior to my time at Ascendex, I was the head of trading at a major marketmaking

1:27firm called FBG Capital that was based in Beijing. Um, so I oversaw all marketmaking as a service, how trading institutions interact with blockchain projects in order to support liquidity. um as well as overthe-c counter trading, asset management, lending and borrowing. Um really like this and that and that was kind of like early stages of that industry. Um and then prior to FBG, I

1:49was part of the core founding team at Gemini working alongside the WLs twins at the US regulated exchange and I started there back in 2015. I was the first non-engineer non-compliance hire. So that was like really good exposure to like the Wall Street side of crypto back in the very very early days when it was really just Bitcoin. Um, and you know, learned a ton there, but ultimately like

2:12I left because I caught like the ICO itch in like 2017 and I wanted to expand beyond Bitcoin. So, >> Mhm. >> I guess like to the second part of your question, like how did that prior experience lead me to Found forged? Um, over the years I've had really good exposure to like the underpinning infrastructure that drives new token launches. Like how projects have to

2:34interact with exchanges in order to facilitate a liquidity event at TGE. Um, how projects need to interact with market makers in order to support an active secondary market. And I'd say that I've seen my fair share of like the ugly side of that ecosystem. Um, so really what Forged is is kind of like a manifestation or culmination of all of these lessons learned about like the

2:57right way to do a token launch and the right way to optimize performance post TGE. Um, and now I'm packaging that up into advisory services and free-touse software and giving that playbook back to the blockchain project to better empower them. So yeah, it's been a a fun journey. Um, and I've really been enjoying kind of like switching sides and now empowering the blockchain

3:19project rather than being on the side of the infrastructure provider, if you will. >> It's very cool, Shane. And that's a breadth of experience working for the exchanges and the market makers, seeing successful projects that launch and seeing probably a lot that flop as well. And then noticing, hey, you know, there's obviously there's things that these projects need to do. uh you can

3:40have a great amazing project that could be the next Tesla but just has a total flop at the beginning because of you know lack of planning around the token side and the launching and actually getting into the public you know it's like it's like launching on the wrong exchange uh in in the stock market you know like totally in the wrong area and so many things can go wrong um so

4:01there's there's a lot to dive into with all that expertise and you mentioned you know obviously having the the pre-TGE launch, there's a lot of things and then post as well to keep it going. Um maybe you can talk about some of those parts in phase one for successful projects that haven't launched a token yet. And it's interesting to see projects now,

4:25some of them launching a platform and waiting even a year or more before launching a token versus trying to do it at the same time. maybe you can touch on that as well, but some of the key factors on preparing a token inside of a a web 3 platform and and launching it. >> Yeah, for sure. Um, so I would say pre-token generation event, regardless of what your fundamentals are or

4:47regardless of what your sector is really like what you're trying to build, there are four phases that need to be executed upon. Um those are in order tokconomics design and protocol architecture, second market maker engagement, third exchange listing strategy and then fourth what we call the liquidity and launch underwriting process. So with tokconomics um really you can divide

5:09that into like supply and demand. So supply you start with distribution who's going to receive tokens and second emissions at what rate are they going to receive them? And then you move on to demand and you say you know what actually gives this underlying token value and that's in many ways independent but related to your protocol design. So you have token utilities and

5:28you have token uh demand mechanisms. Moving on to market maker engagements. Um organic liquidity doesn't exist uh for newly issued tokens regardless of your fundamentals. So you need to incentivize service providers to provide that liquidity. So what type of market maker are you going to work with? um what does the engagement structure actually look like? Moving on to

5:49exchange listing, is it going to be launched on centralized and decentralized exchanges? Uh if so, which ones at what rate? Um this is a very very like gray area of the industry. Um still like overseas Asian exchanges dominate the ecosystem. They bring access to a lot of like retail order flow which can help with community expansion um and evolution regardless of

6:13what your fundamentals are. And so that's a really tricky process to navigate, but there is I believe a blueprint for success. Last but not least, that liquidity and launch underwriting phase really that's like usually in tradi like the role of an investment bank like what is fair value which you're going to launch and therefore how much liquidity is going to

6:34exist at that fair value and that facilitates more of like um positive retail and institutional ex uh user experience at the open. um you want to sort of curate exciting price discovery at the open. Um and it is very much a manufactured process of working with like exchanges and market makers in order to structure effective launches. Um so yeah, I would say those are like

7:02the four main aspects of pre-t. I'm happy to dive into kind of like this this everchanging meta of like do you go product first or token first? like which catalyzes the other because I do think that there's like a lot of interesting case studies that have occurred recently for that. >> Yeah, it's interesting. There's no perfect formula. And that goes for

7:25tokconomics and inflation as well. And you can look at the the top 100 coins on on Coin Gecko, Coin Market Cap, and like they all have different supplies and different inflation rates. And there's no like, hey, we should just do this because, you know, this coin is successful and this is their supply. We should sort of follow what they do. Um, and you know, there's some deflationary

7:49uh like Bitcoin or inflationary like Ethereum. It's like there's no rhyme or reason to success. So, as a a project that's like trying to figure out what works best, I know you said supply and demand and it depends on how the demand works inside of the protocol, but is there any rhyme or reason to determining how you can make the best out of this uh out of how your project works and how to

8:15integrate the token properly? >> I do think that there is a rhyme and reason to it. Um and I think you know Forge leans into this as our point of differentiation. Our advisory services and ourselves by such a large number of projects. Um so we have over a thousand projects that are utilizing these tools. We mine their

8:43data. We recycle that data back to our advisory practice and sort of like our AI generated insights. >> So we can tell you for example like within the last quarter, show me the average tokconomics as it relates to distribution, emissions, and demand drivers for the best performing assets that have listed on Binance and OKX and Upbit successfully, which are sort of

9:04like the big three. >> And at least as it relates to like the supply side of tokconomics, those can be somewhat easily replicated. Um, and I don't necessarily think that like retail knows how to pick or choose the winners, but rather it's like let's look at the outcome and then you seek to emulate that outcome of positive performance and so let's replicate what those projects

9:33are doing. >> And what it ultimately comes down to is that certain tokconomics designs are attractive to centralized exchanges and market makers based on macro market performance within that period of time. So if you want to emulate that success, replicate it, right? Replicate the tokconomics design and then other things might come into play. So yeah, I agree

9:57with you that in some ways like tokconomics are independent from like fundamentals. Um, and sometimes there is no rhyme or reason, but with a statistically significant sample size, I think that you can like pin down best practices. >> Yeah. No, that's a great point, Shane. especially with AI being able to analyze and see uh you know sort of the the average on on what's successful. Um I

10:21feel like the it doesn't seem like there's rhyme or reason when you look at the front page and you see well these are all different. Um but I'm sure on average it sort of equates to something and that's a really great point about the exchanges as well and the market makers. it's their, you know, they have a huge role in the successful launch and continued success of the token. And I'm

10:42sure they probably have uh, you know, uh, some favorites on like, hey, it's better if we do it like this because this is how all the successful launches on our exchanges have happened. If you want to keep it going, maybe make some suggestions there. I feel like that's where Forge would really come in handy rather than just sort of trying to do it yourself.

11:00>> Exactly. Yeah. I mean like good examples would be like Q4 of 2024. What was like hot amongst tokconomics designs? Fair launch. And this happens like once every other year it seems where the community is clamoring for like massive air drops and a significant percentage of the total token supply to be in circulation at TGE and they say that that's fair

11:22because you have minimal inflationary tendencies post TGE. So the token is going to hold its purse power. Now, I think Pudgy Penguins really like drove home that meta. Um, they were one of the best performing assets of that quarter, but then that meta got picked up by like every NFT collection that wanted to issue an attention token. And eventually by Q2 of 2025, what I I saw is that

11:52people that were literally or projects that were literally copy pasting the Pudgy Penguins tokconomics, we're getting rejected by major centralized exchanges like Binance or OKX because the exchanges were saying like if you do an airdrop this large, the community is going to dump and we don't have enough buying pressure to counteract that sell pressure. Mhm.

12:14>> So the price will perform poorly. You know, retail is fatigued. They've seen so many of these lately. So you need to go low float high FTV, which means small percentage of your total token supply at TGE and a higher FTV. So think again the macro market conditions influence what the exchanges have appetite to do and what the exchanges have appetite to do then in turn

12:41influences what projects will go live with. And so it's constantly evolving. What worked 3 months ago might not work at present. And yes that is the case for centralized exchanges. I think it's less of a case, but still relevant for market makers, but those are two key components of a token generation event that can make or break a successful token launch.

13:08>> Mhm. That's really interesting. And speaking of the centralized exchange part, you know, I feel like there's a lot of projects that they're trying to cut corners or they're trying to save money, you know, trying to make it a successful launch, but they're weighing their options of, okay, do we pay? I'm not sure, you know, what the inside rates are on like getting on

13:30the top exchange, but usually you have to pay a lot of money. Then there's these sort of tier 2, three exchanges, and then there's decentralized exchange where you can practically launch for free as well. Uh what would you say to a a project that comes to Forge and they're like, "Well, we're trying to save money, so we'll just launch on the DEX or we'll just launch on this sort of

13:49crappier exchange first and and then later we'll go for Binance." >> Yeah. I mean, it's it's a tough thing to balance. Um, I mean really there's only like 10 centralized exchanges that matter in order. It's like Binance, OKX, Upbit, Coinbase, BitGet, Bybit, KCoin, Gate, MEXC, and then maybe like Kraken. I think that's 10.

14:14>> Um, anything aside from that, it really isn't worthwhile. Now, like Binance, that's going to cost a project anywhere from 5 to 8% of their total token supply and $2 million for a security deposit. >> So, unless you're like VC funded and >> have a relatively flexible cap table or token distribution schedule, it's not realistic. Um, and that's even

14:38considering that they say yes to you >> for a spot listing. Now, the benefit of listing on these centralized exchanges cannot be overstated, right? It's like the single largest marketing event that will get a project access to a retail community. >> And for better or for worse, in crypto, centralized exchanges are perceived as like investment advisors. you know, when

15:04they give a green light for a new primary listing, that's a signal to their community that the exchange has performed due diligence on the fundamentals. This is a sound project. It is likely to have long-term sustainable price appreciation. Therefore, you should buy in at the open. >> And so, I think that there is immense value to the project if they can afford

15:25that listing. Mhm. >> One thing that we do advise projects is that you only get one shot at a primary listing. Primary meaning that it's pre-TGE. >> Um, and the due diligence process is fundamentally different for an exchange for a primary listing as it is a follow-on listing. >> So, you get get a lot of projects that just say like, I'm going to go live on a

15:47DEX. um you know I'll do like a bonding curve for single-sided DLM on like Meteora and then Cedapool on Radium and Orca and then I'll just you know explore centralized exchanges in a couple months only to realize that once you go live the due diligence criteria for centralized exchanges shifts right they now will only look at what is your price performance been since TGE how much

16:13volume are you doing how much liquidity is there and if you don't check their box for any one of those three criterion, you won't get a listing nod. And that's different than a primary listing, which is usually based on like narrative. What is the future potential of the token and how much are you willing to pay? So, if you take that risk, you could be shooting yourself in

16:35the foot down the line if your project doesn't have solid KPIs from like a markets perspective. >> Yeah. Yeah. I know it's a really great point because I I feel like most projects they they you know if they don't have that VC funding or capital they're like let's just try something small at first and you're right the criteria changes u but is there I'm sure there are you know

17:01examples but is it still possible that you launch on the decks and you have market makers and you do have really great KPIs and you can still get listed on a major exchange lighter. >> Totally. I mean, I think this year we've seen that a lot with more of like attention tokens or like meme coins that like >> don't have proper memecoin tokconomic structures. They have such exciting

17:26price performance on dexes. um this cycle it's been Salana based dexes that exchanges centralized exchanges will come out and list these assets in what we call a discretionary basis which means that they don't necessarily have any interaction with the team but they're just going to support trading deposits and withdrawals for the token because they think that it's going to

17:48benefit them from a user acquisition perspective. Um, and that usually happens if you just see such overwhelmingly positive price performance. You know, uh, something goes live, it has massive amounts of volume and liquidity, and it wicks up to, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars in FTV on DEX's, and then the centralized exchanges will just FOMO in.

18:12>> I think that that's >> an exception, not the norm, though. And so planning a token generation event with that anticipation I think is bad strategy because you only get one shot at your your crypto equivalent of an IPO. So why would you leave that much up to chance assuming that you can afford to support it the right way? >> Yeah. No, it's a great uh it's a great

18:37example. I think you know this is an anomaly probably but but the Trump coin you know there was it got listed and and I see exchanges they're like we want that volume we want those customers so everyone starts listing it um for free you know they're like we're just hoping that the volume will come to us right and I think we saw that with maybe peanut and I don't know about Pudgy

18:58Penguins but other exchanges are like we just want to launch uh the token you know I don't even we're not even talking to the team but like we want the volume that's acept exceptional use case if your project fits into that category. >> Yeah. And I think like it's always important to recognize that in crypto everyone is self-interested. Um the centralized exchanges included and so

19:19like if they see an opportunity to make money, they're going to act on that. Um, and you know, if you don't agree to pay the fees and then you go and launch and you, you know, kind of throw it in their face that you didn't need them in order to perform well, but they still see an opportunity to monetize from it. Um, they're going to do so. But again, I

19:40think that these are like these are outliers, assets that have such overwhelmingly positive performance that it drives the centralized exchanges to FOMO list. >> Mhm. Definitely. Well, for the 98% that aren't outliers, you know, we've talked a little bit about the tokconomics. We talked about the exchanges, the importance of it. Uh, I want to touch on

20:01the market making as well because it's great to to launch it, but you know, what happens on day two um and you know, how many buyers and sellers and then keeping the volume up on the exchanges. I'm sure you guys and the exchanges are working with different market makers, but how does that work for a project in ensuring that you know day two doesn't go down 98% like some of these meme

20:22coins that probably don't have market makers? >> Yeah. So, Forged has two tools. Um, we have tools for engaging a market maker uh through a competitive request for quote or RFQ process and then tools for monitoring your market maker which is tracking the liquidity performance and making sure that they're actually adhering to like what they promised they

20:42would. Both are important at the end of the day because new issuance needs liquidity in order to facilitate a more positive user experience. without that liquidity um you know investors, speculators or traders can't buy or sell what they want when they want at a fair price and and in an absence of liquidity your assets going to have massive amounts of volatility which undermine

21:04the fundamentals that you're building. So as it relates to engaging a market maker, I think like um a common misconception amongst projects is like people provide liquidity out of altruistic intentions and that's just not the case. Um expected value has to be positive. And so there are two ways to incentivize a service provider to provide liquidity for your new token

21:27launch. That's either through a retainer and working capital model or a loan plus option model. Um, there are pros and cons associated with each of those models, but at the end of the day, I think what you want to do as a project is align at fair and balance terms that still allow the market maker to profit, but not so egregiously at your expense. And a lot of projects come into that

21:55negotiation as like a I don't want the market maker to ever make money unless I become a multi-billion dollar uh protocol. >> And that's fundamentally misaligned with their business model. And I think for projects that don't understand nuance of market microstructure, it can kind of bite them in the ass. For example, loan plus call option market maker. If strike

22:18prices on their option but not obligation to purchase tokens are too far out of the money, they could turn predatory and parasitic and just start short selling the asset because you've given them no other means to profit through gamma scalping. um um retainer working capital market makers um with you know profit shares that are too difficult to accommodate might just kind

22:42of treat you like an algo on the shelf because you've really given them no reason to assign a discretionary trader to support um the engagement. And so again, the goal there is kind of creating this fair and balanced synergistic structure um that allows the market makers some upside but not too egregiously at the expense of your community. And we have tools for that.

23:06Um we basically have integrations with all the major market makers. Projects can submit a request for quote and get all the market makers to compete in order to win that deal flow. Um what we do what no one else does in the industry is in addition to showing the terms at which the market makers are willing to engage um we also show a market maker leaderboard. So we have such a large

23:29sample size of projects and engagements that we track that we can from a data driven perspective tell you who the best market maker is. Um, the market makers really like that that are integrated with the platform because they like to boast that they're better than their peers and I think it allows them to, I think, quote in a manner that they believe to be a little bit more fair.

23:53Uh, what we found is that projects are willing to accept less favorable terms if it means they can align with the best market makers. >> And that should make sense. kind of like the same reason that Binance can charge whatever they want for a listing, but like MEXC can only charge a little bit just because the discrepancy in value. >> Um, >> that second tool of market maker

24:15engagement uh or market maker monitoring is really just what it sounds like is like getting insight and transparency into what the market maker is doing relative to everyone else and are they hitting their contractual obligations for depth, top of book spread, volume, all of that sort of stuff. Mhm. Yeah, I feel like this is really important. Obviously, the exchange listing is

24:35important, but as an ongoing relationship, the market making seems even more important. It's sort of like having a non-technical founder just relying on the dev and like just trusting what they say, you know, and it's like you have to work together to ensure the long-term success. Um, and maybe you know, however strong your project is, you might have a little bit

24:56more say with the market makers, but you have to trust them because without them, the project will fail for sure. >> Yeah. I would say like if you don't engage a market maker, you're going to have really poor user experience. Um, because like it or not, you are the equivalent of a publicly traded company. And that means that a lot of your success comes down to the market micro

25:19structure. just based on the laws of it's liquidity gets liquidity. Um if you don't subsidize that initial liquidity, um users are going to have a bad time. You're unlikely to attract more and there's a very wellestablished process for ensuring liquidity in the secondary market in Tradfi. um you know post IPO the lead underwriter serves as the lead market maker and they provide liquidity

25:48in a very structured and transparent manner. There's a lot of regulation around this but no such thing exists within crypto. So I've always found it um odd that project founders even though they acknowledge they are like protocol designers and um architects that they tend to neglect any sort of transparency or accountability for market makers and

26:18just trust that they're going to do their jobs when they have such massive influence. Mhm. >> And so what we've built is more of like a a way to dumb down the market makers trade activity and what's going on amidst all of the noise and just tell the founders are the market makers doing what they promised they were going to do or are they potentially operating in a

26:41predatory or parasitic capacity? >> If it's the latter here's some action that you can take. >> Um >> you know all of this again is independent from the fundamental and like the the protocol that they are building. It's just about making sure that the market micro structure is looked after and cared for. Yeah, I feel like having uh a mediator like like

27:07Forge would just make the complete difference of like trying to uh manage the exchange listing, the market maker, everything. Um having the experience that you have of just there's a lot it's it's I feel like it's really hard to do without it. Yeah, I mean that was kind of like the the motivation behind this is like why are product centric and protocol centric

27:30founders um forced to become experts in markets right like there is a playbook for success pre-TGE and there are a set of activities that you should be doing post TGE to optimize success >> and yes there are advisory firms out there that are you know looking to offer for this endto-end solution. I think our differentiation from everyone is that in addition to the advisory practices, we

27:58have these free-touse tools that are accessible by everyone. We're actually finding that more and more advisers actually start using our tools for their portfolio companies now. >> Um, and I'm not giving that stuff away because I'm an altruist. I'm giving it away because it allows me to mine a lot a massive amount of data and then put together these data driven insights. But

28:21yeah, I think again it is so important to have access to these tools and best practices if you're going to do this right and give your fundamentals that you've built up um kind of like their shot at success. And so this endto-end toolkit is essential and the advisory uh services are more optional if you can afford them. Um, and that's usually just for like VC funded top projects that are

28:49looking to launch in the ecosystem. >> Definitely. No, it's really nice to have free tools. That's a that's always a major bonus. I'm going to check those out and put a link in the show notes as well for for people to check it out. And I have another question about the timing, you know, because we talked a little bit about the the launch model and the timing around, you know, in Q4

29:102024. it worked really well and then it two quarters later that model doesn't work. But what about the timing of the entire crypto market and whether you know small cap projects are you know whe whether VCs are throwing money at projects or they're being more conservative and where Bitcoin and Ethereum is you know if if Bitcoin's on an up day or an up month launching then

29:36might help with the with the image. Is there uh a rhyme or reason on the timing of the initial listing? >> Yeah. So, it's not about where Bitcoin, ETH, Salana are trading. It's not about VC inflows. If there's like one main thing to look at it is the price and volume for new listings on Binance and OKX. And that's like your proxy for is

30:05retail really excited about new launches. Mhm. >> If you see that the 24hour uh 24-hour return on investment for new listings starts trending positive and the volume is very high, that's a good signal for like retail speculators are buying a lot of these new listings. They believe that price is going to go up. Mhm. >> And if you can launch at a time that coincides with the

30:32uptrend there, you're going to take advantage of this retail speculative flow. >> And the inverse, if you see that the 24 uh 24hour ROI is trending less positive or even trends negative and or the volume is low. This is a proxy for retail fatigue, right? There have been too many listings. Retail doesn't have evidence that the new asset is going to perform well.

30:58>> So if you list into that, >> then you're unlikely to perform well regardless of what your fundamentals are. >> And we see these trends in volatility for average 24-hour ROI operate in a manner that is almost 100% uncorrelated to macro market conditions or VC flows. It's like in many ways like this niche aspect of the industry that's like low cap altcoin speculative retail

31:26interest and we just use Binance and OKX as our proxy because those are like the topic exchanges where during you know bouts of lots of speculative demand you'll see the most volume or the most exciting price performance. So yeah, if you can time the market there, like really good examples I gave Pudgy Penguins earlier, but like Jetto was probably like one year earlier. That was

31:53November of 2023. Like they captured the wave like right at the beginning and then took advantage of that uptrend. >> Right now we're kind of in this like middle ground where there's some retail demand. >> There's not as much as there was like eight months ago. Um, but I wouldn't say it's like retail fatigue. There's still kind of winners and losers within this

32:16meta. >> It's really interesting. I I thought that, you know, if Ethereum goes up and then altcoins start going up, then maybe new launches will also go up with that when people start throwing people maybe dumb money starts throwing capital at things just hoping, you know, the trend will continue. And in the end, they usually don't do too well. But um I feel

32:40like having those very specific statistics on the 24hour ROI of new launches uh and timing that again so important to have like an advisory firm to understand exactly just not just cuz Bitcoin's up on the day it means nothing. >> Yeah. I mean, I think all that being said, if you're going to launch a token, um, you would drive yourself insane if you

33:08had everything prepared and you said like, "Okay, now I'm going to hold off the listing until I find the perfect moment." >> And that's not how the world works. Usually, you know, you'll be in negotiation with centralized exchanges and you'll finally potentially get the nod for like a Binance or an OKX and a Coinbase. that puts you within like the 99th percentile.

33:29>> They'll assign you a listing date. If you say no to that listing date, you're taking a huge risk. Uh-huh. >> And so what we tell projects um that utilize our free tools or in our internal advisory practice is like get everything that you need to have done and put yourself in a position where you can have some degree of flexibility. But don't do what so many other founders do,

33:54which is like FOMO into the process once you see that the market is hot, thinking that you can burn through like tokconomics design, market maker engagement, exchange negotiations and liquidity and launch underwriting in like a condensed period of time because that's not how the world works. >> Definitely such great insights. Shane, what is the best way to find those free

34:16tools and then explore the other advisory services and all of this other knowledge that you have about successful launches? >> Sure. Um, anyone can create an account for free at forge.com. I think you mentioned you're going to provide a link in the the description. Um, so if you're just looking to conduct research, there are tools for you. If you are a core

34:36contributor from a blockchain project, you can create an account for your project. If you're an adviser, you can create an account and then onboard your portfolio companies. If you're a market maker, there are free tools. Um, and we also are starting work on integration directly with the exchanges to facilitate more seamless UX end to end through the application process and the

34:58actual launch itself. So, Forge.com is where to go. >> Very nice. Thank you so much, Shane, for all the insights. Uh, all the best with everything moving forward and would love to follow up again in the near future. Of course, Ashton. Really appreciate you having me.