Pontem launches Lumio layer 2 chain on Solana

0:01I'm Ashton Addison from the cryptocoin show and today on blockchain interviews we have back with us allejo Pinto co-founder of pontum Alo welcome to the show and thank you for coming back and taking the time yeah it's great to be here really enjoy my first time and happy to be back here again yeah I learned so much about the the move ecosystem uh and and what ponum

0:21Network's been working on in lumio and the other applications it was about 6 months ago for those who didn't see our uh first interview I know a lot of updates have happened since then a lot a lot of things have happened in the industry since then um and other move ecosystem updates I I I first heard of it actually from you and now I've been seeing it everywhere um I feel like

0:42it's part of the Forefront of innovation so I'm excited to dive into that I would love to start off our conversation from those who aren't familiar uh with our first interview or with pontum and lumio and haven't seen it you sort of give a high level overview then we can dive into the latest after that yes definitely so pontum is a product develop studio and we're

1:01focusing on Three core products uh one of them is a wallet that's multichain supports apos other move ecosystem uh projects as well as evm and Solana VM so Solana itself so on pontum wallet you can use you can use it on ethereum any of the l2s on optos uh and then soon on other move projects that are going to be launching on mayet Lumia being one of them so we can we can go

1:25into that um the second product is an amm built on top of move so uh fully immutable permissionless amm uh to swap uh with no intermediary any2 assets uh covers constant product and concentrated liquidity um that one is in stages of further decentralization a governance token is launching uh very soon and yeah that means that ownership will be transferred over to the

1:51community to uh set parameters uh govern uh fees on the protocol um as well as uh grants and future development and so uh yeah very exciting uh component of any decentralized protocol as the ownership gets transferred to the community uh and then lastly we have Lumia which uh is still in development still in testnet um uh we recently released onto public

2:16devnet on salana and yeah that product I'm very excited about it because it's solving an issue that developers have today which is vendor lockin based on which virtual machine or language you chose to build and uh lumio essentially is a framework to deploy with any virtual machine onto major l2s and l1s right now we have a deployment on optimism and we recently released on

2:40Solana so imagine being able to take an application from ethereum or from apos deploying it on salana with without having to make any code changes uh vice versa take an application from salana or apos or and being able to deployed onto an ethereum uh L2 um so yeah that's an issue that exists for Developers say and um something we identified ourselves

3:03building on the appos ecosystem with move um so even though move definitely uh is a great language uh has a lot of benefits like Improvement on performance and safety uh your vendor locked in because all these l1s that have native assets like eth op Soul uh don't support move therefore you know if we wanted to deployer Applications we'd have to migrate them and now you're having to

3:27maintain two code bases which incurs a lot of tech Deb and resources so yeah with the solution we're hoping to solve a problem for ourselves and a problem for the whole ecosystem and uh yeah we're hoping that this will be uh useful for developers uh that's really incredible I'd love to dive into each of those um specifically on on the lumio side that

3:47problem of hey there's a huge Network effect on the ethereum network and some of the other blockchains where you know just because they were sort of the first there a lot of huge applications are there now uh but the the technology uh to some they would argue it's it's Antiquated or we could have better more secure technology with newer languages like move or these other uh sort of

4:10multi-chain being able to move around applications um so i' I'd love to hear a little bit more on that update for the multiv VM U and I'm I'm curious more about move VM but I feel like this is a great stepping stone in that yeah you don't want to have to do everything twice um and the developer lock in just being developer and not having to choose which language okay I'm forced to go to

4:35this blockchain I feel like that's a huge hindrance for for crypto adoption overall yeah exactly and that's the that's where we started so uh as I mentioned we built out applications on top of apos with the move virtual machine and as we wanted to continue expanding to offer our users e Soul uh this is the issue we ran into right we can really easily deploy our uh contra s

5:00there are smart contracts which is the entire application or the business logic and therefore uh you know we started building for move and as we talk to more developers uh we realize you know we're not the only people that have these this problem of being wanting to expand to other ecosystem so that your end users can access uh Native eth or native Soul

5:21um could be native Bitcoin in the future native ton Etc uh without having to migrate their entire application so uh if you notice UNIS is deployed across BNB Avalanche um a host of uh evm compatible l1's and l2s and something like radium or Jupiter uh or liquid swap can only be deployed on one uh so yeah after after talking to developers uh we realized hey this is an issue bigger

5:48than us um you know if we can solve this issue for ourselves we can solve it for a whole host of other people so we decided to build a framework uh in a way where it was extensible so you can add on more virtual machines um initially we're starting with the movm the svm and the evm uh but you can easily also include web assembly uh there's others like Cairo Etc so uh but yeah we we

6:11think by focusing on uh these three we're covering uh a large portion of the market and application developers that are building with these uh that have already built with these can easily migrate and Deploy on various chains and then if you're a new developer you're now also uh not vendor locked in and the decision to build with move for example on ethereum or build with evm on salana

6:34becomes a lot easier and uh you just have a lot more freedom of choice as you're the point yeah no that's really exciting so I think Unis swap is a great example it has a lot of liquidity locked on those evm chains you know if you go to the top right of unisa you can see all the chains mostly just the layer two is on ethereum and and BNB so with this

6:56update could they go in into lumio and say hey let's launch this on salana Aptos any chain yeah that's exactly it so uh the way that it's deployed technically is as a layer to so let's go through the example of salana where uh right now um unit swap can offer their users native Soul um you know it could be Bridge Soul you know maybe the Wormhole or something

7:23like that but if users want a native Soul uh they couldn't access it or any of the meme coins that are trading on salana Etc so if if unisoft wanted to offer their users native soul and and coins from salana they could Deploy on Lumia which is going to be an L2 deployed on salana people can then uh roll up their assets or Bridge their assets over uh this is as trust

7:43minimized as possible rollups on ether it's architected in a very similar way as rollups on ethereum using fraud proofs um we're also researching validity proofs but uh you're essentially trust minimized um rolling up assets and uh able to then trade them on to this L2 uh with the same application that um same application that is running on ethereum without

8:07having to make code changes so you can easily just deploy that evm contract and then offer your users the native assets from salana wow that's incredible uh I feel like it's a huge hurdle that daps like all of the the defi lending daps would want to expand to new ecosystems so would that mean that the the value locked in to uh uh if the DAP is on ethereum that could easily be moved

8:33without extra security um issues or you know vulnerabilities um by you know I thinka traditionally using bridging there's a lot of vulnerabilities to move assets to other chains yeah even recently there was a hack on the lii bridge um you know it's it's arguably whether that could have been presented prevented with um you know another smart contract language

8:56like move but um uh yeah I mean bridges are definitely one of the uh core Central points of failure uh so a lot of end users to this day still don't feel comfortable using Bridges to swap assets or move them around so um uh I would argue you know obviously a rollup still has a bridge uh but this is uh secured in a trust minimized way where uh the whole rollup the whole settlement of the

9:23rollup is secured in the same way so uh there are fail saves where let's say if the sequencer was compromise people can still Force withdraw their assets from the bridge and go back to the L1 um so it is even though it's it's technically a bridge because you're uh you know bridging assets from the L1 to the L2 uh the implementation of it is uh arguably

9:44safer than uh using something that's cutting across different l1s um so yeah from from an application developer if you want to offer your users uh the safest way to access native soul in your application uh this is definitely a great way uh something that I didn't mention but is also a huge uh benefit of rollups is that uh you're able to go faster have more bandwidth and have

10:07lower costs than the L1 itself and on so this is definitely useful on ethereum obviously ethereum as we know it's very slow and and and expensive uh however relatively the same scaling solution that helps solve some of these problems for ethereum can be applied to these faster l1s so even though Solana is relatively cheap to ethereum a transaction still cost uh you know some

10:33some pennies maybe like most transactions a few pennies and then during periods of congestion or more complex transactions can cost 10 20 cents so if you're able to make those costs orders of magnitude cheaper for an application that wants to do uh wants to enable high frequency trading uh let's say you want to do gaming on chain so uh acquiring experience points as you're

10:55chopping wood let's say on an MMO RPG all that can be done on chain a fraction up the cost on an L2 while still having settlement and still having uh compatibility with assets from the L1 so yeah this is a huge benefit as well of using uh nl2 even in these more high performance chains and I think it's a trend will continue we'll continue seeing yeah no it's really exciting to

11:18to hear that and now with this latest update that happened from what I understand this is a like a Dev net release so the developers are just starting to test the the the ation potential and we're not actually moving ether from Unis swap onto These Chains yet um yeah so uh what we have deployed now is testnet on optimism so the idea is that we're going to U merge this

11:46implementation onto the optimism sequencer once they go with a shared sequencer um so you'll have compatibility with other l2s within that ecosystem like op main net Bas Etc um our goal with lumio to deploy uh various L2 a collection of l2s uh we call this the lumio collective um and essentially uh each each implementation similar to Unis swap being having a separate

12:12implementation on BMB or having a separate implementation on Avalanche uh is going to be separate um so when Unis swap if Unis swap were to deploy on to lumio on Solana it would be an implementation on Lumia which is an L2 on Solana we call a Lumia on Soul um and then this enables them to have the same capabilities as um you know have being deployed on optimism or arbitrum where

12:36you can swap uh Native eth for example on um Unis swap on optimism or Unis swap on on arbitrum so uh yeah I mean you wouldn't see for example uh B&B uh being swapped on Unis swap on optimism or Unis swap on arbitrum uh but you do see uh you know native BNB being swapped on on there so uh yeah uh to be clear these are uh each each L2 and L1

13:06we have will have its own deployment and then as an application developer I can choose to deploy and be compatible with the optimism L2 ecosystem uh or the salana uh ecosystem or uh let's say the arbitrum uh L2 ecosystem so yeah um separate deployments and uh similar as you would have separate deployments now um now that obviously contributes to the

13:31issue of fragmentation of applications across these um you know that's that's not an area where we're Focus but I do think that uh Solutions like uh intent uh for example intent-based uh cross chain uh swapping will make uh the application experience a lot better for users so uh the way that intent these intent based uh protocols work is that essentially they uh look for offchain

13:57solvers let's say market makers or could be anyone really uh to fill the coinci of wants of essentially uh settling let's say eth for soul so uh but you still need those applications to be you still need those applications to be deployed um on these on these networks for uh the settlement to happen between these so if you're you a swap you're deployed on let's say optimism and

14:24you're deployed on Solana and a user wants to swap op for soul uh through a user interface or a wallet let's say uh you know you can have a simple uh swap button that just covers all the you know Unis swap deploy chains and then and I believe this is what Unis swap is doing with their router um but essentially you'll be able to say Okay I want to swap my op which is on optimism

14:49for soul um you know which could be on lumio the PLO salana uh the end user doesn't have to think about oh you know do I switch the network um you know do I have to bridge to you know usdc on soul and you know do all these all these things with uh an intent based solution or a router like Unis swap X um the user can just you know choose the two assets

15:10and then that order will get filled offchain and then the user will get um essentially the asset that they want so um they will get it on the you know on the Chain where it's deployed so um yeah that's you know even though uh you know the fragmentation still exists there's Solutions being built as well to help uh solve some of this augmentation but um

15:31yeah uh this is going to enable the base applications to essentially be deployed onto uh the networks where users want to use their native Native assets like Soul or E yeah no it sounds incredible I'm looking forward to to seeing that in reality um and you know we've been talking a lot about Unis swap because it's a great example um but I want to dive a little bit more into liquid swap

15:53the amm I know you guys are uh the the team's growing it out and there's a a token coming with further decentralization maybe can start high level on on liquid Swap and and why it's such a great amm in the way that it was built and where it's at right now yeah so uh liquid swap is really uh the first core implementation of a constant product Market maker uh with

16:18the move language um as opos was launching um definitely a gap for this uh core infrastructure that makes up uh you know most of the trading in crypto so we saw an opportunity to fill that we built out the constant product and then uh recently released concentrated liquidity as well and uh at its core it's there's very similar functionality as a Unis swap or a pancake swap which

16:43uses uh you know similar similar formats I think uh as a whole most of the technology uh for Defi and even like l2s and l1s is is I mean you could argue this for most tech is it's relatively commoditized um so I think what buils down at the end of the day is you know as these applications become useful is uh one small performance improvements um and I think this is where the commodity

17:08of the product starts to split off using something like move over evm so uh with move you're able to run uh transactions uh you're able to run transactions in parallel so for example if you have uh as long as they don't Collide um so if you have for example uh a market that's uh usdc Bitcoin in a market that's eth bitco uh sorry eth usdc uh you can have those you can have

17:34two people uh you know or like a transactions two transactions run in parallel um as long as they're not colliding so you wouldn't be able to do like two transactions for E usdc for example uh but yeah as long as they're not colliding in the account that they're targeting you can run transactions in parallel um and this is a benefit of rust Bas virtual machines

17:54uh like move and like the salon VM uh this is something that the evm can can't do out of the box uh you know you might have heard of paralyze evm as like an addition or modification to the evm to be able to do this um so that's you know that's one benefit of using a move application over an evm application it's going to be marginally uh more efficient

18:15um another another one is uh safety built into the protocol so especially around this new trend of extensibility for the amm so uh as people that are not familiar UNIS is launching with Unis swap V4 uh essentially hooks or applications that can be connected into the core Unis swap protocol uh or pools so you can create these uh essentially custom implementations that can still

18:43use the core Unis swap protocol uh so this opens up uh this makes Unis swap essentially a platform for applications to be built on top of it um so as you are building out more applications the risk of uh you know potentially shooting your yourself in the foot with evm uh being one of the main drawbacks to it uh including re-entrancy attacks for example or overflow errors or something

19:08that can be uh so the move the move virtual machine has a native approver to for doing formal verification so that you know what the outputs of your code are going to be uh you can definitely do this with uh evm as well with solidity but um it's not natively built into the virtual machine so you're still relying on a third like third party libraries so

19:29um move overall just has a lot more guard rails that prevent developers from shooting themselves in the foot so that you know someone that doesn't have you know 10 years of experience building smart contracts can come in and feel more confident building applications um on top of another protocol like this so um yeah I think there's there's marginal benefits that these new languages and

19:50and virtual machines uh will give applications and I think that's something that definitely is going to give a liquid swap an edge over incumbents that are built over evm um another key component that we see as you know being a differentiator for these applications is the community and how the protocol is carried forward so these protocols these products and I think

20:12it's a very interesting example are becoming almost like uh little nation states or governments uh where uh you would think of like your own City you know being within a bigger you know nation state like a state or a country itself um and I think similarly in the protocols you're seeing like uh communities and overlapping communities for example within uh ethereum uh the

20:37maker do community the a community or the unisat community is a subset of the ethereum community which is a subset of the overall crypto community and uh these tokens really are a tool for uh coordination so you would imagine behind um and again there's a whole spectrum of how these protocols operate and what parameters can actually be set by tokens

21:00um but a lot of these protocols uh for example let's say um maybe maybe vrum might be a better example where um very tied into the protocol itself the token holders uh can vote for which pairs uh they drive emissions to so the vome token uh is emitted uh to liquidity providers that are providing liquidity and the token

21:28holder can choose which pairs to drive those emissions to um another uh utility of that token is that they get uh the fees from the pairs that they're voting for so if for example I think that you know the Bitcoin USD pair is going to be very popular I'm going to vote if I'm an owner of the protocol I'm going to vote for that uh uh getting more emissions

21:51that should drive more um liquidity because that pair is getting more trading volume um and then I'm also getting the fee is mostly for that pair that I'm voting for um therefore it's aligning my incentives to vote um you know where I think you know the most popular pair is going to be because it's going to return me the most um you know the most amount of money um and that's

22:14you know that's something that you could have humans do you could me as a human owner of these tokens I can build an algorithm and just say hey look based on uh this subset of pairs let's say eth Bitcoin Soul um and again this is hypothetical because these aren't trading on on vrum but um uh I can just build an algorithm that says whenever the trading fees are higher just switch

22:39my votes to that um so now you know even though I'm the owner of those tokens so I you know get rights to uh you know the fees from these pairs I've just built an algorithm to automatically rebalance based on where the the you know where the volume is um and you can imagine and this is where it gets kind of crazy where these organiz like these these

23:00products are no different from like a Robin Hood or a coinbase right like they're just like a robin her coinbase is still fundamentally just enabling uh an exchange of assets but they don't have these capabilities to allow users or thirdparty stakeholders to change the product real time whereas on a blockchain product like uh a vrum or liquid swap or Unis swap the users of

23:25the tokens can literally change the parameters of the protocol real time and yes right now it's mostly humans making decisions and you know maybe writing Bots and algorithms to implement them but I think very soon we're going to see more and more decision- making being made by AI itself or algorithms that are you know optimizing based on machine learning algorithms or even llms um and

23:49then you know I think probably humans will still be the end ownerships and maybe be still be able to change you know what their tokens do um but yeah I mean I think this is like a a step towards automating uh products and if we think about it today most products are uh digital so like Again The Exchange is a very easy one uh you know we understand exchanges because we all use

24:14Robin Hood or or coinbase um so like imagine that no longer needing a coinbase no longer needing a Robin Hood to operate it's just the protocol the empoyed and the owners are the people that have the tokens they can set the parameters they can choose to um you know with the trading fees pay them back to themselves or buy back the token Etc earn the cash flows of that of

24:36that protocol or that product the same thing can be done with a a is essentially um maybe like a bank where like you know some people deposits like a money market some people deposit um and you know in exchange for yield other people uh borrow those assets um but like you could theoretically do this for any digital product right so I know it's like a little bit more far out there but

24:59uh there is like decentralized uber for example if you go on salana uh there's an application called teleport um there's uh dpin networks that are popping up or you know can be alternatives to Google Maps and other you know products and all these again don't need like maybe like uh a a uh authoritarian kind of structure like I think most most companies today are just you know for

25:27lack of a better word just authoritarian led by like a CEO or like you know a board of directors right um and the end users the people that are on the ground floor don't have as much say into like maybe maybe through sure maybe through um you know through through shares they can vote for certain things like you know who who gets who's part of the board or whatever but they can't

25:49actually like set the fees they can't actually um you know change uh what upgrades get made to the protocol itself um so I think this is like a fundamental uh this is like the paradigm shift that happens when you build products on blockchain that they can literally operate autonomously through these tokens that are owned you know by humans or owned by robots and the

26:14parameters that get put into those protocols um when made accordingly can can actually run these decentralized autonomous organizations and um you know I don't think it'll happen overnight and for now it's mostly still set like most of these parameters are still set by humans and there's um you know security councils and vetos and everything because governance attacks are still you

26:37know a per issue but um yeah it's it's very interesting to be kind of like in the midst of seeing this actually come to life and I can definitely Envision a future maybe not even too far from now where uh fundamentally like most products are not even run by humans right because if you a automate the parameters if you automate what the product does the decisions that need to

27:03be made and then those decisions themselves can be done by other other machines you know input all the information for example risk um setting the uh setting the risk parameters for a credit protocol right now that's mostly humans like okay how much is an individual allowed to borrow um you know maybe there's some algorithm that goes into that that you know informs like

27:25whether you get a credit card loan or not um but for the most part especially for something like a or something like that um you know it's informed by data but still decided by humans but you can imagine a future where that's entirely automated um these parameters are set by token holders so token holders which with humans or machines behind them um

27:45Can essentially just operate this protocol and this protocol becomes more and more autonomous and at some point we might not even need humans at all to to operate them so um yeah it's kind of crazy but I do see a future where more and more product get automated and you know this is literally like the the Forefront of of automation which I'm sure people have thought about and have

28:06been talking around about for a long time but seeing kind of like how it can be done and and being at the Grassroots of it getting built is like pretty interesting and um you know it'll it'll we'll see how what it looks like in 10 10 20 years yeah no it's super fascinating and I think most people would agree that the the way that the corporate structures are set up with

28:28shareholder voting in traditional companies on the stock market right now is by no means uh fast efficient and perfect there's so much Automation and and and blockchain governance that can come in to improve that it's great to see that happening uh and and and thank you for all the insights into that you know it's it's crazy to think that you can own a bunch of shares in something

28:50but then you have to vote for who you think is best to make the decisions for you instead of actually just being able to make the votes yourself through through decentralized governance so I'm looking forward to seeing how it all plays out um I want to zoom into right now and in the next coming months with the liquid swap amm is releasing the governance token um I'm I'm sure there's

29:14a a long plan on how to implement all of it because it's it's a lot of it's a lot of things to do to run a company you know there's so many different functions and to program all of that it's a lot of work but what are some of the first steps um as as the token gets launched what will be some of the things that people can do to help shape the the protocol yeah definitely so initially uh

29:41you don't want to hand over full control of setting uh parameters uh you know to just be implemented onchain as people vote uh the safest way to do this is have an onchain mechanism that updates these parameters uh but still have uh veto power or a security Council will essentially have a period of time where they can roll back uh what they see as potentially a governance attack so uh

30:06we'll be transitioning to have certain parameters such as fees for individual pools uh be put under this um and then there's other uh components that can be um put up for governance and again you want to do it in a way where uh you let the onchain governance happen but then if have a period of time where if you know if deemed by us appointed or um you

30:32know elected Security Council that the governance update is malicious to the protocol or overall malicious for them to be able to veto that so um another example would be uh protocol upgrades for example so you could have uh protocol upgrades or the upgradability of the protocol be set by the Dow itself and when someone uh ships code or updates it um the community can vote

31:00essentially with the tokens to say uh yes let's put this on chain this will be the new version of the of the protocol now you can see how this is dangerous if let's say you know someone upgrades it to malicious code that just can withdraw all the all the funds right so that would be the that would be a case where um you know you'd want a security Council to be able to inspect the code

31:21um make sure that it's gone through proper Audits and uh and that can be for example a heuristic that you use right like the code needs to be audited by uh a set of reputable Auditors before it's put on chain and and upgraded um similarly uh parameters for fees uh like for example increasing the fee for a specific pool let's say like a very volatile asset like a mem coin whereas

31:45something less volatile like uh a stable coin um you know you can you can have even built in um guard rails so it doesn't go off the rails and those can also be set um and then just let people kind of like pick between these guard rails um yeah these are all these are all components of the protocol where you know you can have a community input and then the community votes go to make

32:07changes to the protocol itself on chain um but you still need again it's very important that you still uh need a security Council or some form of veto power um in case there is governance attacks uh I think potentially um and I don't know if like you know you ever want to remove this guard rail or safety rail um but you could potentially could right if over enough period of time uh

32:30you know it's trusted and uh there's systems in place like maybe you can like for example maybe from a trusted set of Auditors uh if they onchain commit to saying yes I audited this code and it's a hash of that code so you know for sure it's that code um you know that could be implemented so that uh you know protocol upgrades go through these audits um but

32:53then I guess you could argue that then the Auditors themselves become kind of like the security Council um but yeah there's there's ways where you can start to remove these guardrails but um yeah over over time I think it's um yeah we'll we'll have it be more possible and and you you do need like a responsible transition to full automation otherwise

33:12things can easily go off the rails um as I mentioned like you could have an upgrade that can just you know uh be detrimental to the protocol or set the fees uh to a point where like people don't want to trade anymore Etc so um yeah it's it's interesting and you need to do it in a way that's uh responsible so that the protocol itself can have long long-term sustainability yeah no

33:35that that completely makes sense and there's clear benefits to uh these updates but there's also a transition that needs to be made um because there's a lot involved to to make sure that it's done properly and that people adjust to uh the evolution of it um and but I feel like a lot of people are interested in this because obviously they're going to

33:57have a lot more control um with you know their their votes or their money on how they can control the protocol and potentially benefit the ecosystem and themselves so uh what is the best way for people to to learn more about this and to start testing it out or getting involved as the token launches as they can sort of figure out how they can participate more in the

34:21governance as it evolves yeah definitely follow us on our socials uh ponum Network work you know we'll be putting out information um I encourage people to get involved with existing Dows and existing uh token communi so they can see what the process looks like uh oftentimes um if not all times it should be uh through public forums people post ideas um uh if it's

34:46code that's going to be implemented the code is posted there and it's um you know if it's gone through audits gets posted with audits Etc um so yeah it's a it's supposed to be a public forum where you know everyone can contribute anyone from the community can contribute often times there's minimums if you want to put up a proposal you need some minimum

35:03amount of tokens to be able to have the have It Go up for governance um so yeah I encourage people to uh get familiar with already existing uh Dows and and how they're operating uh some of the Blue Chip ethereum protocols I think do a really good job at this uh one that's you know very important and and likely going to be implemented soon is the fee

35:22switch for UNIS swap so um you know as I mentioned earlier a lot of these Protocols are are very similar to existing corporations except that they're run fully on chain and technically uh no one can shut them down so even if a state level actor China or the US government or Coalition you know like NATO wanted to shut down Unis swap they really couldn't um but the the the

35:45governance token holders are responsible for what happens for uh let's say the feeds that Unis swap is acing so Unis swap as we know uh facilitat exchange of assets and you could put um you know right now it's zero but the treasury could ACR fees uh through a small you know small fee uh and then the token holders will have access to um you know vote on what that treasury does so it

36:12could easily buy back the token which drives the value of their existing tokens or distribute those and those are essentially cash flows um as you know a coinbase would have Etc so um yeah it's very interesting I know people don't like to make these comparisons because because you know that that's essentially looks a lot like dividends and you know there's like this uh conflation between

36:33Securities and tokens and security tokens and all this um but it's I think it's fundamentally a different thing where again you're you're enabling people to actually so uh let's say a so this is the difference uh a protocol itself when it generates cash flows and revenues you don't need to trust an intermediary to give you those cash flows because it's all coded you can

36:56literally inspect it yourself and know that if I have this token um you know the code says that I should get this much amount from what the protocol is generating I don't need to trust a third party to distribute those dividends or distribute those cash flows whereas something like a company you know they could be they could literally be lying about how much money they're making and

37:13then promising you to be making you hey look I'm gonna if you buy my my share you're going to get this much money out of what we're making but they could literally be running a Ponzi scheme and because it's not on chain you can't you know you can't see the money the money that's actually regenerating so fundamentally removing that intermediary makes it so that you don't need uh

37:34someone like a regulator to say yes this thing is safe this thing is not safe um like literally you can just go and inspect it yourself amazing um thank you so much for the insights allejo it is an amazing evolution of uh the the traditional Financial world into web 3 uh I'm looking forward to checking out the the token launch for for liquid Swap and participating and getting involved

37:58in other Dows as you mentioned um and also I'm going to check out the uh the the updates for uh lumio on soul and and the devet uh launch and The Future Sounds bright with that one and um not just because the name sounds really cool um but I think that being able to launch all these Financial applications and other daps on any chain is going to make

38:20it that much easier for uh web 3 to be adopted uh and lower the barriers to entry for developers which I feel like is a is a major barrier right now so thank you so much for for taking the the the time to explain all of this and I can definitely leave the links as you mentioned uh for ponum Network the socials to follow along uh the the platform links as well in the show notes

38:42below and I would love to follow up in the near future as more updates get released awesome yeah thank you um our goal is to make deploying on blockchains easier and having more and more applications be decentralized so we don't have to trust third parties um so yeah happy to be here on the show thank you for having me again and yeah looking forward to the next one