Use your crypto without selling it: Anvil’s Max Schwartz on the new SDK

0:00this is the future we all want and we're trying to make it happen. You can't be mad that like bankers are now getting involved and you're like, "No, no, those are the guys that are actually going to make this transition happen so that we're not just a bunch of fringe people building crypto products for crypto enthusiasts. We're building this for the

0:14whole world and like we are all going to benefit from the modernization of the financial system." legacy. >> I'm Ashen Addison from the Cryptocoin Show and today on Blockchain Interviews, you have Max Schwarz, CEO of Anvil Research Labs. Anvil lets you lock up your crypto you already hold as a guarantee to pay without selling it and much much more that we're here to dive

0:37into today. Max, welcome to the show. >> Thanks, Ashton. Super super pumped to be here and been an admirer of yours for a while. So glad to be here. >> I I appreciate that. Likewise, I saw your talk at the blockchain futurist conference and I have some some questions on that, but I would love to start high level with you. Maybe we can start out with in in your words. What is

0:57Anvil for people who have never heard of it? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, Anvil um you know, Anvil is a couple things. It's like the core protocol and the governance token that that that governs it. Um, and then like Anvil Research Labs is sort of the uh company that we've graduated to from a project at a foundation to a full-blown research and development

1:18company to build tooling um you know propose extensions and and and you know uh amplify the the actual core protocol and then build tooling on top of it right um so at its core we're talking about the core protocol layer like what is the anvil protocol it is you know pretty close to what you already described it is sort what we call the universal collateral layer. This is um

1:41you know we have 741 million people owned crypto last year. You have 2.3 trillion somewhere around there in market cap. And yet Trad has a very hard time of recognizing this value, right? You have all this value out there, but like how do you use it to get a mortgage or a car loan or a credit card? And as people become more and more cryptonative um we start to see this need for

2:05financial services but the traditional rails don't know how to recognize it right so anvil at its core provides sort of that bridge right by utilizing digital assets that people already have as collateral and I've gone on and on about how digital assets actually make for the perfect collateral and I can dive into that um but being able to pledge to those things the result uh

2:24because of smart contracts and the way the blockchains work we can create this fully secured credit offering that you really just don't see in Tradfi um or in traditional commerce because it's so difficult to achieve. So largely you rely on trustbased solutions or credit scores or any of that other stuff, right? Um but when you have fully secured credit, not only does it allow

2:44for this bridge to Tradfi because now they have guaranteed value they can work off and they don't have to worry about the crypto layer of it. Um but in addition there are like major upgrades to the financial infrastructure that um Anvil proposes and and just blockchain in general can do. So there's like sort of two buckets for why this needs to exist. There's the people already own

3:06this and how do we like leverage this and make them capital efficient, meet the users where they are, so to speak. And then there's also the literally this is superior financial engineering um if you can make it accessible um and and and and build it into operations so that there's not this massive learning curve for adoption for traditional businesses

3:25and traditional finance. So the core protocol all it does is it has these very basic mechanisms that allows digital assets to be used as collateral in a number of different ways and that's how we aim to create that bridge to the traditional world. Let's dive into that a little more. You you say that digital assets are perfect and probably better than than

3:45traditional assets for collateral, but the adoption rate has been slow. I'm guessing because of the volatility and maybe the access to it, maybe the misunderstanding from from institutions. Uh why do you think it is better than than traditional capital? >> I I think it's it's absolutely superior for uh collateral. And there's a couple ways to look at it. So I mean you

4:08mentioned like why has there been uh resistance to it initially? You know I've been in uh you know this space since the late 2010s. So not like very very OG but still like early enough to remember where institutions wouldn't go anywhere near you or if they did it was like purely at a marketing level and not really at a we're not we don't really trust this to where we're at now which

4:29is like all you hear in the crypto space is institutional adoption institutional adoption institutional adoption. And it's because like it's an inevitability right? there's a market efficiency. There's more money to be made there. There's, you know, better off like anytime the market can move towards efficiency, it's going to um so there's this recogn uh recognition that this is

4:48superior technology. Uh and it's going to save a lot of money and and make people more capital efficient. Um so that's sort of why I think we've shifted the overturn window, if you will, on this. But as for why digital assets specifically make better collateral, I would say if we look at the collateral options we already have in society, if we just like go into the normal, you

5:07know, tradi world, right? You either have illquid collateral or liquid collateral. Um illquid collateral is like, you know, your house or whatever um or a car, uh things like that, right? The problem with ill liquid collateral um is that it's very hard to uh repossess because like there's operational overhead to try and repossess if someone defaults on a

5:31financial promise. Um the market for it is not always open. Like think about it like if you have to sell your house, think about like if you have to repossess someone's house and then turn it around and then sell it. Like everyone who's sold a house knows just the process of to go through that, right? And now imagine you're a bank and you have to like, you know, depending on

5:50where you are in the country, there's different rules around, you know, how long it takes to evict somebody and take great possession of the house and turn around and and and what about the condition of the house? What if the sort of at this point tenant, but you know, former owner, whatever has destroyed the house. It's like there's so much inefficiency and it's like is the bank

6:06actually going to get the value out of it that it needs to get out of it. It is a very long process. It is a very operationally intense process and it is very um expensive process to do. uh versus well I'll get to the digital assets in a second. So you have those problems, right? That the market is not immediately accessible. The condition of the asset is usually unknown, right? Um

6:27you know, if you have a car loan, you know, if you don't pay your car loan, people will repossess your car. But does your bank know on a day-to-day value like how much on a day-to-day basis like what is the value of your car? Does it know almost anything about it? No. Right? So it's like it's a crapshoot as to whether or not they're going to get any of this money back, right? So um so

6:45that's very difficult. and then actually having to, you know, have hire people or or or employ people to repossess it and then turn around and sell it um is an expensive concept. So the result of that inefficiency is that everybody has to pay more in interest rates because a certain amount of people are going to default on those loans, right? And because of that, you know, you know,

7:03traditional financial institutions are not dumb. They want to make sure that they're making money and they're in the black, right? So everybody is going to have to pay more in the form of administration administrative fees or higher interest rates to cover the fact that a certain amount of people are going to default and that value may not be there when they need it. Right? So

7:18that's just inefficiency across the board. So if there was a way to create something that was fully secured behind it, then you wouldn't have that risk of default. And then on the liquid collateral side, there's um so that's like you know like money in the bank or or stocks or any of that stuff like that market like you know the value of it for the most part. It's not perfect, right?

7:37banking hours and all that other stuff, but it's really hard to like repossess like whereas you can take possession of a car, right? How do I say like Ashton, you know, the money in your bank account over there, that $50,000, you need to hold on to that for me and you can't rehypothe you can't promise to anyone else. You can't move it. I can't make you do that, right? So, a lot of times

7:56the the best >> option, you know, it's funny like how how companies try and deal with that. like the perfect option really is like an escrow based service, but that involves a third party and trust and fees and all that kind of inefficiency that's associated with that. Similarly, it's like, oh, I have stock, but now I have to give it to this guy to hold on

8:13to or give it to the counterparty to hold on to while it's backing something, right? Um, it's it's just a complicated process and it's not available to everybody all the time, right? Um, so the result is like neither form of collateral is particularly good for different reasons. Um, and digital assets sort of solve all those problems, right? What do we know? We always know

8:34its price. The market is open 247, 365, right? You can always access that value. If you have a liquidation event where you have to repossess something and I'll I'll talk about the mechanism, what that really means. Uh, and then like be able to sell it and liquidate it. You can do that in a block, right? It's like that. It's that quick to be able to realize

8:51the value of it. And the value and because it's fully liquid, you always know the value of it, right? So then you say, well, then how do you possess it? And that's really where Anvil sort of comes in is that with smart contracts, we can create this decentralized peer-to-peer approach where it's like I can make you a promise, financial promise, and guarantee it with my

9:09digital assets as collateral. That collateral can still be associated to my account, right? So, it's still mine, like I still have it, but there's a hold on it. Sort of like um you might have a credit card hold or something in traditional world, but that only lasts a couple days and you can do chargebacks and all that other stuff. I'm talking about literally that thing where I was

9:26like that $50,000 in your bank account, hold on to it and don't promise it to anyone else. You can actually do that with smart contracts, right? You just that's literally all this protocol does is there's 50,000 USDC or whatever it is, $50,000 worth of, you know, lido stake wrapped ether, whatever it is, and there's a hold on it and even I can't access it or rehypothe because it's

9:45being promised for this thing, right? And the result of that is you have fully secured um credit that's completely liquid and and instantly liquidatable if you need to. So you walk away with this idea that there is a promise for $50,000. I don't or 50,000 let's say USDC which you might say is as good as a dollar cuz you can get one to one at Coinbase, right? So you can be a Ashton

10:09the guy, you could be a traditional financial institution, whatever. You could be a mortgage lender, whatever, right? And you can walk around going, I don't care how this guy collateralizes. I don't care what he does. All I know is there's a promise out there. It's for, let's say, a year I issued the promise for. And at any moment now or a year minus one block, I can go and claim that

10:2950,000 USDC. And because we're dealing with um uh you can do like a direct one to one promise, but because we're often dealing with two different token types, there's two things that are needed in what I call like the tr the the bridge to traditional finance, right? There's what do you care about? You meaning the the the integrating party, the uh financial

10:49institution, right? And then what do I care about the user, right? And maybe I'm a business in a B2B thing where I'm trying to get credit, you know, across borders or maybe I'm just an individual looking for a car loan, but what do I care about, right? And often times those two things are at odds because most businesses would say, I want dollars. I want fiat. I want something stable,

11:09something that I can operate my business off of knowing that that value is always there. What I might say is, hey, you know, I'm long Bitcoin. I'm long, you know, an Ethereum derivative. I've got a whole bunch of money parked in crypto. I don't want to create an taxable event by selling, you know, right now just to be able to access liquidity, just to make a

11:27financial promise, right? >> Um because really that's what it comes down to is this difference between a payment and a promise. And because there's the there's such gray area there because in the traditional world, like I said, there's no good way of securing liquid collateral. So the end result is usually like you just got to pay up. You either we're going to trust you to pay

11:45up front or you either you're trusting to pay over time or you got to pay upfront. And neither one is a good capital efficient option, right? So what Anvil allows you to do is use the crypto you already have, right? You may be long, it may um appreciate in value, uh it may uh natively earn yield because it's that type of token or whatever. um I can just sort of take my long-term

12:05holdings and then just put holds on them for the purpose of you know accessing credit here there you know and and and the variety of different mechanisms that that uh Anvil um operate. So, it really creates this decentralized way to bridge the DeFi world to the crowdf in a world in which 741 million people own crypto. Um, while not having to worry about the volatility of the

12:32collateral side because the protocol itself enforces it. >> Mhm. Very interesting. And it's it's crazy to think how common, you know, the the home equity loans are with how inefficient it is. It's just been become the standard. But I wouldn't want to be the institution that has to sell a house because I I know people >> still happening. My wife and I are like

12:53we're talking about potentially buying a different house or whatever and the bank looks at me like I'm a drug dealer. I'm like dude I don't there's value here and they're like we don't know what to do with that. Like yeah it's crazy >> for sure. So can you walk me through on the crypto side maybe a few different scenarios? Say I have a Bitcoin in a a

13:11cold storage wallet or I have crypto that I have a position in in a DEX or maybe on a centralized exchange and I and I need to access uh some something that that requires the collateral. How does that work? >> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So um at its Okay. So here's where uh it's important to break down the the core protocol like what its actual functionality does and

13:35then what is possible when you just build on top of it, right? Because in like we call ourselves the universal collateral layer and this is something that not every end user has to be involved at the core protocol level but this is one of the things anvil research labs does is we build tooling on top of it to sort of abstract that away from users that don't actually want to deal

13:52with it right so at its core level as long as you can interact with smart contracts right if that's a like whatever kind of wallet you might have as long as you can sign transactions right you are capable of like depositing your longerterm holdings into the protocol still associated with you and then from there um you know like being able to issue promises financial

14:15promises in order to get yourself access to loans or lines of credit buy now pay later services you were mentioning the the futurist talk where I talk about the problems with buy now pay later and how that's a bubble that I think is going to burst um so all of that comes at the you know at the core protocol layer so you do need like an like currently uh you

14:32need ERC20 on Ethereum mainet in order to do that um and you need to be able to sign transactions. Now, that's not the be all and end all because you mentioned centralized uh you know institutions and all that stuff. There is nothing stopping a centralized uh uh company to be able to integrate with it on their operational side and expose that value to users. So, it's really like like it's

14:56not uh there's like the core layer and then there's what we're building out and that's one of the things that was really exciting about the announcement this morning where we talked about how we released this new SDK. My mission from the beginning and Anvil Research Lab's uh you know sort of mission that built upon what was already created the core protocol layer is not just to expand the

15:13protocol and its functionality but to build tooling so that it's as easy as possible for end users to integrate with and for businesses to take advantage of without really having to understand be like a crypto expert and understand transactions and all this other stuff. Right? So this is why we've started to build like what we call our enterprise suite which makes it very very easy for

15:36all this stuff that you know at a core protocol layer is just a very simple promise and a a proof of reserve kind of thing. Um and then build layers on top of it. So it's like it looks and feels like you know normal SAS software that businesses use every day but under the hood you have this guaranteed financial value. And that's why at its core you just need this guaranteed promise

15:57concept and then from there we can build all kinds of tech on top of it. And now there's this major announcement in terms of building tech, making it easier and everyone's starting to build now with AI, the announcement of the the Anvil SDK. Can can you talk about what that uh opens up and and how people can build more? >> Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, one of

16:20the things like I don't think we've we've touched on just yet, um, is when we're describing this financial promise at a higher level, there's a number of different mechanisms that that can make that happen within the Anvil Protocol, and we're we're starting to add new ones. But sort of our flagship um, offering is what we call a digital letter of credit. And I'm sure you know

16:39your viewers, you're well aware of like what letters of credit mean in the traditional world. And basically by creating this digital peer-to-peer version that's much more efficient um and instantaneous and direct and all that stuff um we're able to make that happen. So um we did have an earlier version of the SDK that was sort of like a MVP way in. Now our SDK the one that

16:57we've announced like takes all that letter of credit functionality that we were talking about and makes it super simple for adoption. Um, so not only does it do things like um, you know, all the kinds of UX things that you you'd expect from um, you know, any kind of software as a service that you'd use or something like that. But so we not only integrate the core protocol. So

17:17everything you can do with the protocol can be done through the SDK now. Um, and on top of that, we realize like look, people that integrate with tech. I I've heard the same thing from every company, and this is before uh before Andal, even when I was in web 2, right? We don't have enough developers. We don't have time. A road map's crazy. It's really

17:37hard to code to this. And especially when you're talking to businesses that are uh let's call it crypto interested or maybe crypto motivated but like don't necessarily understand the tech that well they need like a a white glove out of the box solution right so one of the things that the SDK does is like do you have wallet connectivity in your uh in

17:56your app if you don't doesn't matter it comes automatically like we we have our own fallback wallet connectivity so if you're if you're not running a DAP or you're not running a product where you need the users to connect their wallet like the SDK K will do it for you. You need pricing data, right? You don't need to worry about that. We bring pricing

18:13data as well. You can bring your own pricing data. Everything is configurable at a very advanced level. But if you just want to use this right out of the box, you don't need to worry about pricing data, transaction building, getting your users to sign it, connect their wallet, all that stuff is built in. Like it's literally just installing, you know, a library and then boom. Then

18:30on top of it, we built component layer stuff because because we've been dealing in this world and because we've been building this for integrators and working with them, we have a very good sense of like what it is they need out of uh you know userfacing components, right? So we have this React library of components that you can easily just basically drag and drop into your

18:47project. Then you're like done. We can access Anvil letters of credit uh in our app and we didn't we don't even really necessarily need to understand how everything works under the hood in order for the users to have an endto-end experience where they connect their wallet, they can view their balance, they can figure out what they can use as collateral and pledge a promise to that

19:05company all in one. So you could just be some, you know, legacy, you know, you could be some car loon company and be like, "Oh, I just dropped this in and there's like here are my options as to like, you know, you can go this proc this path or this path or like you you said at futurist, right? We're talking about buy now pay later, right?" Imagine if you just had like a buy now with pay

19:21later crypto. It's like, "Okay, what do you have? You have like Amazon pay, Apple Pay, from Anvil, right? Like buy now pay later with crypto, right? I can promise this and I'm gonna pay you later." And the nice thing is anyone can be the BNPL bank now because when you get a fully secured promise, you don't need to worry about, you know, repayments and structures and all that

19:38other you just build it in and you're like, great, this guy has issued us a promise for $5,000 so I can buy, you know, a new PA speaker, a mixer or whatever, right? And then like and we're going to give it to you for 6 months, right? Pay it back in six months or we're going to claim the value that you owe us. There's no risk on our part. We don't need to worry about building a

19:57whole repayment system or anything like that. It's just like we have this guaranteed value and at no point will we worry about default. Uh and just as a little aside like I was saying before the price of default gets passed on to everybody because a certain amount of people are not going to pay us back. >> If you are an institution that that uses this your default rate is now basically

20:15zero. So because of that you can massively undercut the market all your competitors that might be offering this percent. If you're like hey if you go this route you actually can pay this percent. Because this is pure profit for us. This is just the cost of doing business. has nothing to do with whether or not we have to build in the inefficiency into the system. So all

20:31that is possible with the SDK which is great. So we have the UX facing components and everything like that all the connectivity real-time data all that um and if you want a more advanced approach if you are like a web 3 savvy company um you can just take this at its core layer in a headless capacity and just use it to like you know to build into your product but you control the

20:53user experience and all this stuff but we made it very very customizable. We built this whole configurator where even on the fly you can sort of play with different components on our on our docs and then like just grab the resulting code that comes out and drop it in your um in your project. And because like you mentioned AI, everybody's using AI now.

21:10We try to make it as friendly as possible for like AI agents to be able to look at digest and then put in without them having to worry about it. So there's no more excuses to oh we don't have developer time or our road map is slammed or you know we don't really understand this stuff right. So it's like we really tried to build to the institutional need for this stuff

21:27because everybody sees all the institutions that are working their way into DeFi now or or trying to expose themselves or uh you know into this this market or or acquiring companies to do this stuff. Um they all need a a way in right that's been audited and and and you know is thought about from the institutional level versus the just the very very top consumer level that you

21:48see most product. >> Definitely. And you know, I was going to ask you know, why uh suppliers or vendors would would take a crypto letter of credit o over a bank guarantee because of the the worries and and the details. But it sounds like the SDK is the solution for that and really just making it as easy as possible and, you know, potentially easier than the bank

22:11guarantees to. >> No, it's really it's it's really cool. So the SDK is like sort of the latest in this enterprise suite. So that that enables you to like get access to anvil in your project, right? and access to the kind of tooling and stuff that that ARIRL has built on top of it to make it enterprise friendly. We've also done this whole thing with our enterprise

22:28solution where it allows like letters of credit that at a core level just gets issued to a an address which is you know usually at a base level like an EOA. Now it's now it can be a smart contract. We made really easy to spin up institutional smart contracts that like so if you think about how heavy uh you know the industry is dependent upon multi-igs and stuff like that. We built

22:46like full role-based access control smart contract deployment where you can create this thing, this contract that then your users issue these promises to these letters of credit to, but it allows multiple addresses and uh and keys and all that other stuff to collaborate on the same um list of things. So, you can actually have hundreds of thousands of letters of

23:07credit um issued to your company, but then be able to collaborate. Everyone in your organization can log in with their own set of keys and have their own like specific fine grain permissions and you can give it access to you know you can have bots use it or whatever and give it very very specific permissions and you can all collaborate on that without

23:23having to worry about um you know sharing keys or like one set of keys under the hood that then if someone gets access to it creates all these problems. We've created all kinds of financial controls so that a modern business like can configure this whole thing and then actually like predefine a lot of stuff so you really don't have the opportunity for malicious actors to be able to you

23:44know say hey I'm going to redeem this but I'm going to redeem it to my wallet or whatever like like you just set all those permissions in place and all those routes in place. So it it's meant to work with not just um like existing sort of enterprise web 3 stuff but also like you know if you have a Coinbase institutional account right like what do you see you see like if you want to

24:02accept you know X token right you usually have to send it to a certain route and it's like okay if you want to accept USDC you send it to this route and then like what you'll see on chain is it goes that route and then it gets forwarded and credited in their internal system right we've made that smart contract approach to be able to be configured with all those kinds of

24:19different routes on a per token basis So you can actually like say we can just have a coinbased institutional regulated you know you know fully you know like that that sort of white glove centralized experience that I think most institutions are looking for and still accept this thing that's very web 3 and transactiony and onchain right and so that's that's what I mean about building

24:39those bridges it's incredible and I I want to jump over to the crypto side and investment as well f first there was another announcement tied to that which is even bigger of a $5 million investment in Anvil. Maybe you can touch on that and what that signals from, you know, the institutional adoption, institutional adoption that you were talking about in

25:01the beginning and then after that, maybe you can touch more on Anvil governance and and how that actually ties into the economy. >> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So, um yeah, the I mean, we're we're blown away by um sort of the reception we've gotten to uh what we've built. Uh so I'll say about Anvil's governance is entirely decentralized right um there's nothing

25:22that we can change at the core like we meaning me or ARIRL or the foundation that originally changed or whatever at the core level without a vote right everything goes through a proposal process this is all built on like sort of the OG way that compound did it that then open Zeppelin standardized a lot of these contracts open Zeppelin is like a a very like long-term partner of ours

25:41that helped with some design helps with audits all the time but help with some original designs of governance. We use a lot of their contracts. This is like heavily audited and welltrodden territory in DeFi. Um so we use that approach um to uh the protocol everything around the protocol configurations um the the financial controls which tokens you support to

26:02things like you know the bigger things like contract upgrades what is upgradable you know changes to to to just about everything. Anytime you add on a new contract on onto the overall um ecosystem that gets voted on. So, um, the reason that this what you call it an investment is is really, uh, cool is that really what it is is it's just like a token purchase from the kinds of

26:24institutions that have a stake in figuring out this onchain collateral thing, right? So, it's not like, oh yeah, like we bought a stake in ARIRL or we bought a stake in the foundation, right? It's actually even more like impressive to me that they would put their money where their mouth is and say, no, no, we want these tokens. We want to be able to vote on this. we're

26:43like long the idea that um this type of uh universal collateral layer as we call it is going to be the rules of the road for the future right so it's cool to see institutional adoption at the integrator level people that are using the tech and building it into their own workflows but then it's also really cool to see it at a governance level because I'm really

27:02looking forward to having um you know these large institutions very you know sort of to me very impressive names you know our lead was like not even um one that I think usually invests that that much in crypto that often um is uh you know it's really exciting to see them want to get involved and you know take sort of major positions in uh this protocol cuz I think like I said it's

27:24part of a larger trend of institutions recognizing that all this stuff is going to come on chain and one of the really cool things about the bullish partnership that was announced back in uh in Miami at consensus um where Tom the CEO mentioned that they're they're using uh Anvil in their operations. One of the things that was really cool about this is they're the

27:46first comp time that we've ever seen like a publicly traded company say we're going to use DeFi in our actual operations itself. And I think the thing I don't want to speak for them, but I think the thing that in my conversations with them, it sounded like they're really excited about um was this idea that like going back to the operational efficiency standpoint, it's not just

28:03like, you know, the the sexiest thing in the world, but if you go to a an enterprise and you say to them like, "Hey, imagine no more accounts receivable being like tracking people down. Like, did you pay?" It's like you were on net30, net 90. Like it's day 100. What do we do? like we do we charge you finance fees on all this stuff tracking people down imagine knowing

28:23like this is it like there's a promise out there and we can claim it right now there is nowhere you AR could be like a bot or one guy it doesn't need to be a whole department anymore and I'm not advocating for you know removal of jobs or anything like that I'm just saying that this is what efficiency looks like if you look at how much of the economy

28:39in general are just basically people asking like companies to pay their invoices like and saying like this is absurd that this this whole job title needs to exist in in 2026, right? We can be way more uh uh we can be way more uh efficient about this stuff. And so that's why Bullish is is great both as a partner as as a company that wants to uh be involved in governance. It seems like

29:03obviously based off of the the token purchase, but then also like is one of the integrators. It's sort of like, hey, like we see where this is headed. And if I can take it one step further, and this isn't specifically about though Bullsh did acquire massive like tokenization, uh, RWA company, um, and I think the largest acquisition, crypto acquisition,

29:23this is like all you hear about is, right, like tokenized assets, RWA is coming on chain. This to us is like inevitable. And so the idea that like once those things come on chain um and like we've already talked about the efficiencies of when you have a digital asset why that's superior now you're saying well how do I use it to access financial services right I have this

29:42this new thing on chain like okay there's a price associated with it and all that stuff like then how do I use it for things how do I use it to get access to to credit right that's where this comes in which is why having partners that are very much in that tokenization space um is really cool because they're I think they realize like we need this outlet for this to be usable. It's not

30:02just about putting it on chain so it can be bought and sold and transferred. It's also like how does it you know fit into the larger financial services economy and you're like this is why a layer like this is really >> definitely no it's very exciting and you know the the buy now pay later has just increased the the velocity of money. Everyone's like there's there's no

30:21stress. You just just click in and uh >> you're going to get me all worked up about PMPL if we start talking about it. Um, so you know, I I want to talk about the future because this is two huge announcements, investment in the token and the SDK, but with the SDK out, how, you know, what are the steps and and and what's the time frame to exponentially

30:44increase the amount of adoption of this kind of technology into uh into where people are buying things? >> Yeah. No, absolutely. So the like I said the nice thing about the way that we went about doing the docs and everything is that it's all like right there. All the information is there. It you know to be um you know internalized by developers or by AI agents to be able to

31:07start taking advantage of this. And this is once you have access to the SDK you know you can this could be like a same day setup type thing uh at its very you know um you know basic level. So in terms of adoption like if you like if you want to get involved one of the things that I think you know we we've started writing a lot of like use case articles and guides as to like how to

31:27get started the nice sort of the the gift and the curse of Anvil and working with Anvil is that what we created is such a broad modular flexible building blocks that sort of service everything right so the the benefit is that anyone can benefit from it right the the hard part is then like communicating this thing for different industries and different use cases, right? BNPL is very

31:51different from like global trade which is very different from i gaming, right? We haven't even talked about like the idea that like hey like why do I have to like keep depositing into all these platforms just to be able to participate in gaming, right? This could totally be a promise, right? So anyway, like all these different industries, right? there's some commonality in terms of

32:09what end users might need depending on if it's B2B or B TOC but at its core the um like we need to contextualize it for different industries in a way that makes it very easy to adopt. So that's why like our team is here honestly like our discord is awesome a very awesome community if you want to if you're a business that wants to integrate with this stuff you can go to discord you can

32:30ask questions like or you can contact us there's a contact form on our website that does like you know partnership or integration requests all that stuff and we'll get that and you know even before getting started you can always like bounce stuff off us in terms of like what is the best way to get started for this type of industry >> and what I'll say without teasing too

32:48much in the future >> um my team has spent a lot a lot of time building now another layer of contracts on top of the core contracts that we call helper contracts that are meant to be used with these locks, these digital layers of credit but for specific industries or use cases, right? Um so imagine a situation where I'll give you something that like people ask me all

33:10the time, right? And so I explain this digital letter of credit concept to them, right? And they go, "Okay, I understand how there's this fully secured promise. I'm making Ashton this promise, right? But and Ashton's, let's say, going to give me a loan, right? But then the question comes up is like, well, wait a minute, hold on. If there's this fully secured promise and I can't

33:26remove that collateral, I can't rug Ashton with it, right? How do I know that if I pay Ashton back, Ashton's actually going to give me my collateral back and release it back to me? Because that's the whole game, right? The game is I fulfill the financial commitment onchain, offchain, however operationally it's set up. Then Ashton cancels the letter of credit and I get my collateral

33:43back. And that collateral may be worth more if it's a if it's a asset like a Bitcoin or Ethereum derivative or something non-stable. um or it might you know endemically earn yield or both right so now all of a sudden the value of the thing that I had pledged is more and I have access to it right um but then the question becomes like well how do I know that Ashton's then going to

34:02release it right and that's where I have to like explain to people again we're talking at the very basic level you need this fully secured guarantee but you can build your own contracts on top of it and we're building ARIRL is building contracts on top of it that help service things like that so imagine you have a contract and all it does is it just says

34:18it defines Ashton is giving me this much money. I repay not Ashton but the contract. And then the contract sets the rules that says Ashton cannot redeem my coll redeem the credited value liquidating my collateral, right? If I've made the payments. Once I've made the payments now all of a sudden like I get my my collateral back, right? I don't have to

34:38trust Ashton to do it because the contract has the technical conditions on when he can access the money and when I can access my collateral back, right? So it's like it it's funny because you you explain something that's very simple, but then I think people start to realize like, oh, but what does that mean? And you're like, this is why we have one layer above and we build four different

34:54use cases, right? But when we were building Anvil, we didn't want to be so prescriptive as a this is just a loan repayment system or whatever. taking that business logic, putting it one layer ahead and then saying like this is what it means for escros, this is what it means for, you know, loan repayment, this is what it means for capital raises, this is what it means for what

35:10and there's like all kinds of situations in which you'd want to pledge um, you know, credited value, but now we can build for the use case to make it even easier to adopt and have those kind of rules set in place so that the N integrator doesn't need to really think about it. And so it's just about matching up the different industries to the different ways that you can utilize

35:26these fundamental building blocks. Amazing. Thank you, Max, for for all the insights into this and for helping make crypto into a legitimate payment ecosystem. It's it's a lot more complex than just I need to buy something, here's some Bitcoin because there's there's a million scenarios. Um, >> no, I appreciate your Ashton. Yeah, it's um it's it's work that I think needs to

35:51get done and I know that there is uh sort of a funeral that's happening on Twitter around the like death of the you know crypto culture and all that stuff and you know I was involved early enough to remember that like sort of counterculture revolutionary thing and oh it's all just suits and fin and institutional guys whatever I'm like this is great this is what we wanted

36:12right this is the this is the future we all want and we're trying to make it happen you can't be mad that like bankers are now getting involved and you're like, "No, no, those are the guys that are actually going to make this transition happen so that we're not just a bunch of fringe people building crypto products for crypto enthusiasts. We're building this for the whole world and

36:27like we are all going to benefit from the modernization of the financial system." Like I said, when you remove um the inefficiencies and all that stuff, things are going to get cheaper and faster and more accessible to every agree. Thank you so much for the time, Max. All the best with everything anvil moving forward and would love to follow up again in the near future.

36:46>> Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Ashton.