Daniel T on building digital assets that last with Tokenise.Tech

0:01I'm Ashton Addison from the Cryptocoin Show and today on blockchain interviews we have Daniel Tahori, founder of tokeniz.te. Here to talk about tokenization, building a token in in startups, launching it, managing it, and all of those details and more. Daniel, welcome to the show and thanks for taking the time. >> Thank you. The you did great on my last

0:23name, by the way. Not many people do, especially in American. Nice. Good stuff. >> Yeah. Well, you got to get it right. And um with tokenization, there's a lot of things that can go wrong as well. So, you do have to do your best to get those things right. And I know that you have been working on that for quite a few years. And tokenized.te is helping

0:44companies tokenize as they launch to try and set them up for success to create a great blockchain company that actually makes a difference and the token sticks around and has a meaningful impact. Uh, I would love to start off our conversation with just a little bit on what tokenized.te is, what's the goal, and then we can dive into like tokenizing a company and how to make

1:06that successful. >> Cool. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Um, so, okay. So, tokenize our whole process, what we're trying to achieve right now is is the build of better, more sound digital assets, basically. So, you know, you can think of almost like an antithesis to companies or platforms like Pump Fun or Blanc Fun. Um, rather than just simply launching a memecoin um through an

1:32application layer, you're more so trying to launch a digital asset that functions much more similarly in the eyes of a potential investor like a stock. So it that's that's really what we're trying to push forward is is as much as it is obviously cryptocurrency and it's blockchain backed and it's smart contracts and all the rest of rigmarole um these are just digital assets and our

1:54biggest vision for tokeniz is if we can help to make the digital asset market efficient then we can create an environment where it's more likely where that large scale investors um external retail investors anybody who's potentially invested in something like the S&P 500 would look at crypto as an asset class that's worth investing into as well. >> Definitely. Um, I I love to see

2:18platforms that help launch legitimate uh more digital assets that have an underlying value and um, you know, people can say what they will about Pump Fun, whether it's injecting money into the market or it's just fun and uh, there's nothing really backing those tokens and I don't think that is the right platform for a company that's trying to tokenize, but they don't

2:40really know the intricacies of of web 3. they might see, hey, people are able to easily create tokens on this pump fund platform, but there's so much more to just creating a token and launching it. Um, you know, it's like when you're creating a company, the stock, um, there's different ways that you can go about it to have a better chance of success. And I know that there's many

3:03different pieces to it, but from reading your work, I've seen that it might be easier to start by categorizing the planning and building of of the token, then launching it and having a successful launch and then managing it afterwards to ensure that it doesn't just launch and die like some of these celebrity tokens launch and then minus 99% and they forget about it a week

3:27later. So, there's three pillars to that. I would love to start off on the most important one probably is is building and the tokenization process from the beginning tokconomics so many other factors. Can you talk about what goes into the thought process of tokenizing and the building part? >> Yeah. Yeah, of course. So, um I think so for us our primitive within the company

3:53is tokconomics which is really just a fancy word for the economics of a token. Um, and it's it's not as big and scary as it seems. I think that there's a um misconstrued thought process in the space that tokconomics are particularly challenging. I mean, it's not like they're easy, but it's also like it's it's I don't know, you don't see a lot of people wanting to explore that

4:13particular area. And so, we go from the primitive of ensuring that what you're building is backed by sound simulations and sound economics to suggest that your token will do well. So, uh, a good example of this is having, um, a relatively normal supply, having a decently allocated token, having to make sure that people have the correct lockups, and then you can look at things

4:38like making sure that, I don't know, you know, you go quite deep, but you can look at things like making sure that your cell pressure doesn't look too bad or your supply shocks are not too bad. And there's there's just a ton of um there's there's math and there's science and there's economics that go into it. And I'm trying to make it seem like it's

4:56not. >> The problem with tokconomics in the current space is that it feels like it's gatekept by a lot of people who think that they're smarter than everybody and it makes it alien and challenging for people to want to jump into. >> But your tokconomics are what will set the foundation for a good healthy asset. And so it shouldn't be, you know, scary.

5:15It shouldn't feel like a walled garden. It should be just as normal as if you were to go to a smart contract developer and get your smart contracts done and then audited and so on and so forth. >> Yeah, I feel like tokconomics are so interesting because all of the for example the top 100 coins that are the most successful and have been around for years and years. Mostly all the

5:37tokconomics are different and they have different circulating supplies, total supplies, uh inflation rates, whether it's in deflationary or small inflation, uh and and you know, you go from 21 million with Bitcoin to like trillions with Dogecoin and these other and it's like >> what what are the factors that made those successful being that they're all

5:59so different and when a company comes in and they and they say, well, you know, Bitcoin's successful, maybe we should make 21 million as well. Um, but I feel like it's much more complex than just doing that. >> Well, it's down to the use case really, right? So, you you actually um >> two really great polarizing examples to sort of contrast the to what they're

6:20doing. So, with Bitcoin, you have an inherently deflationary supply because we have the hing event that occurs once every four years, right? So, the rewards are harved every four years. Um, and we will only ever have 21 million uh bitcoins. And what's happened with Bitcoin is obviously it started off with uh the idea to be peer-to-peer payments. what it's now being seen as or what it's

6:40found sort of product market fit closer to a store of digital value which is actually the the model supports stores of digital value better because the supply is being harved every like the sorry the rewards are being harved every four years and because the supply is so finite and to that end what you end up with is you end up with Bitcoin sitting at $118,000

7:02that uh to potentially the average investor might seem quite large but to institutional finance to people on Wall Street. They don't care about $118,000. So fine, fine, no problem. You've got people like the Michael Sailors of the world who are storing tons of Bitcoin and now it's being associated with their equity value, etc., etc., etc. So, it becomes this really quite interesting

7:22digital gold, >> right? But then with Doge in particular, the the key difference here is that Doge is about culture and it's about the uh the tangible valuation of said culture. So um meme actually is it was coined back in the 70s by Richard Dawkins and he uh was positing that um so a unit of DNA um is a gene and so his in his mind he

7:49of culture and he defined it as meme which is weird right Richard Dawkins a very prolific scientist so anyway meme is a unit of culture and so to assign value to memes is to assign units of value to culture and Dogecoin's massive supply ensures that Doge coin itself is almost always going to be quite low in value. It's going to be 30 cents, 40 cents maybe maximum, right? And so to

8:10the retail investor, to the the person who's just a fan of the culture, it's very accessible. It's very easy to become part of the of the hype and of the team and acts as a really cool entry point for people to get into assets. As much as it is obviously a meme coin, it's it's it's a cultural asset and and a representation of culture. Mhm. >> So really two polarizing differences,

8:32very different tokconomics, but specific to the use case and utility that these assets have in their respective ecosystems. >> Yeah. No, it's it's great to see that polarization, but I feel like for companies that want to, you know, make a legit tokenization of whether it's their stock or a utility token for a financial application, for example, you're going

8:56to want to meet in the middle between those two. Maybe it's not digital gold with scarcity and maybe it's not an abundant meme token, something in the middle. I don't know if Ethereum is a good example of that or some of the other large caps, but um does that make sense? >> Yeah, I mean I think it's just really it's always just down to the use case.

9:14What whenever I work with founders or whenever I'm mentoring accelerators or whenever I'm you know working with somebody, I'm always saying to them like what is your token actually going to do in your system? M >> and if you just tell me, oh, you can stake it and you can generate some yield, it's not enough that it's not 20, you know, 19 or 2020 anymore. Um, and so

9:32utility is probably the most important lens to think through when designing a token. And that's often what I sort of work through with founders. So it's sort of like, you know, you've got the >> what's it going to do? Then you've got the base set of um information at the to about the token. So your supply, your market cap, your valuation, those sorts

9:49of things. And then you got all the deep stuff underneath where you know you go in deep and you sort of figure out um hopefully in theory what's going to and uh and how can we ensure that it does something really good. >> I love that you're actually correlating the two. I feel like a lot of projects they they just look at the tokconomics and they just throw a dart or something

10:09and when understanding what the function is, how that actually relates to making successful tokconomics based on that it makes sense. Uh, and so I I would love to dive into that more myself like on the tokenized platform. I'm going to check that out. I I have uh a question for the 99% of the tokens that you know because there's thousands of tokens that

10:34are semisuccessful. Um, and but there's millions now with the ease of creation that are not successful. Yeah. Can you talk about some of the reasons that launches fail? It's a really good question. I mean, it's a plethora. Um, so I would say it's like immediately off the jump, it's going to be you're going to have some sort of something foundationally wrong

10:56with the tokconomics. That's almost often the case. >> Um, but then it's also interesting because there is gap between the tokconomics that you've built and uh actually actioning it when you go to market. So, we all remember um Hawk Tourcoin. What happened was her tokconomics were actually not terrible. They had they they tried to build some semblance of structure. It wasn't too

11:21bad. But what actually happened was when they launched the Hawker token, the devs never put her tokens into smart contracts and they were never actually locked up or vested. Essentially, they just had control over the supply and then dumped it as soon as it got to a certain point. So, okay. So, even if you maybe have the good tokconomics, you need to make sure that you have

11:38everything structured from a um development perspective. needs to sit in smart contracts, need to sit on chain, those sorts of things. Okay, maybe you've done both of those and you're doing well. After that point, you could have all sorts of things occur like founder error. So, another example we can look at is M or Mantra. The guy the guys running it were basically running a

11:58massive I don't want to be too uh deflamatory here. what they were doing because this is actually just talking about facts is they were using overthe-c counter deal um add buy pressure into their token but what what and what they were doing as well as they were keeping liquidity thin. >> So when you have thin liquidity but buy pressure what this does is that actually

12:18creates artificial um price pumps, right? And so they pumped from like 50 cents to $6 over the course of 6 months because they were doing these deals. But then what happened was they met a ton of sell pressure all of a sudden. M >> the liquidity was still thin and so the same happened in reverse, right? Tons of sell pressure, no liquidity, dead token.

12:37This was founder problem. So they've done everything else right anyway to start off with. They done the tokconomics, they got the smart contracts, they got the market, but they still cooked it because they did something wrong that was fundamentally negative towards their token health. >> So it's like you it's interesting you ask the question, why do launches fail?

12:53It's it's like it could be any reason if you're not just doing the correct steps in a row basically. you know that there you're climbing up the ladder and at certain point you can just fall off the ladder and that's that's sort of how some of these well most of these launches occur. >> Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. The the the mantra example is uh I think you could consider

13:13it a successful launch but not a successful manage which would be the third step. >> No, you're right. You're absolutely right. Yeah. Um, but on the launch part, I want to dive into that more because I feel like when uh a token launches some kind of management of it right away is super important because if it dumps on on day one, maybe there's a hard time

13:35recovering and there's all these other factors. Can you talk about your factors for a successful launch period? >> Yes, that's great. Actually, that's a really good question. So um when you're going through a launch period, this is this is the TGE, what we refer to as TGE, so your token generation event, right? Um and then depending on the protocol though, it could be like that

13:57could last a week potentially. >> So So there's when I when I work with startups, >> basically it comes down to do you have money or not. >> So let's look at both scenarios. If you have money, right, if you have some decent money, um you can almost always pay for a sex listing. So centralized exchange and if you can get onto a centralized exchange so like

14:18>> Mexi >> like um Gate for example that usually really does quite well from a launch perspective because one you get the cosign from the brand that this token is worth potentially buying. So you get that sort of marketing you get that bit of reputation. So that's a good first day booster. And then the other side of it is those platforms typically have KYC

14:38users who have money sitting in wallets who are ready to start buying those assets. So if you have the cash to pay for a listing, go for a sex listing first and then once you've, you know, made some money, you've got some liquidity going, maybe you go out and deploy something in liquidity pool on like unis swap or sushi swap and then in that case you know you can keep your

14:57market running without necessarily needing to be confined to a centralized exchange because you know obviously you've got web 3, you've got decentralized, centralized, you got purists and all that sort of thing. On the flip side, if you don't have money, which is lots of projects, what I typically recommend actually is to go through something like a liquidity um

15:14bootstrapping pool. So something like balancer for example is really quite useful. And the reason for this is because what you can do is you can quickly start to figure out you can actually conduct price without necessarily having to have a lot of liquidity. >> So typically speaking, you jump into a liquidity pool and it's 50/50. If you're using something like balancer, you can

15:33go like 9010. So you can put a very small amount of um USDT cash which again everyone's going to be we're assuming people are strapped here. So a small amount of cash plus a good amount of your token. You can enable price discovery through buyers and sells and you can then take that liquidity and repurpose it in a pool like a DEX for example. And that that's your sort of

15:53like your foray into getting into the space. Hopefully you can build up some TVL and then once you've done that you can go out you usually get a sex listing quite quickly after that. >> That's good to know. >> Yeah. Um, and yeah, I just want to dive into the the platform itself a little bit more because you sound like you have a lot of knowledge in launching the

16:10token and you know, people are always looking for companies that even if they're great companies, whether it's an established company or a startup, jumping into tokenization when you're haven't been in crypto or you're not familiar with the wallets can be a daunting task. So with tokeniz.te, tech. How easy do you guys make that process for for companies that aren't that

16:34familiar with crypto? >> Well, actually the way we've structured the platform is the only thing you need is a Google login. So, you can just jump in with just a normal account um and basically start going. What we've done is with the platform, we've broken down everything um from sort of like like okay uh you might have something like FDV somewhere and then we'll break it

16:55down for you. this is your fully diluted evaluation and fully diluted evaluation means this. >> So we've tried to make it as simple as possible and as straightforward. >> What we're actually doing now though is we are pulling in everything that we've done in our builder and we're pulling it into a new system that we've been building out and it's going to be

17:10totally AI. So it's going to be like you can just you can just text you can just talk to it and just say, "Hey, I want to build that X sort of token." And it will start to build the token out for you. So it'll it'll um one it'll cut down the learning curve for sure, but it'll also just be generally a better experience. >> Yeah, AI is really shaping uh everything

17:30in the world. And I feel like it's been the the notion of of AI plus blockchain has been around now for uh a year and a half to you know since since sort of chat GBT uh initially launched and you know had all those users on day one there was like hey but there wasn't a lot of functionality and I feel like it's now catching up. What do you think about where

17:53>> that intersection of of AI and blockchain is together to actually have functions to actually do things rather than just typing to a LLM? >> Oh wow. This is a I'm very excited about this question because we've been deeply exploring this for months. Um I'm sure most companies are. So, even since maybe January or December of last year, I've been writing about just like all sorts

18:14of different concepts and niche ideas of things that I've just been like I I write to sort of um help me think through thoughts basically. I'm I'm sure most people do the same thing. And so what I what I've been thinking about a lot of is is actually the intersection between the agentic economy and crypto. Because my my my current thesis and something that we're sort of building

18:33the company on right now is that if we eventually shift to a point where agents transact on behalf of humans then and the only way that an agent can transact is through something like a wallet. So through a blockchain through a ledger then eventually all assets will will have to be on a ledger will have to be on a blockchain. So you you imagine in a future where maybe five years from

18:57now you could use an agent to buy Apple stock that has been tokenized on chain. >> That would that's a that's where I sort of see things going quite quite quickly. And so what we've been thinking about is essentially everything that is really frustrating and tedious and annoying um when it comes to web 3 stuff and how an AI could essentially abstract it away.

19:20So um buying, selling, swapping through large trading interfaces is you know you could abstract that. Buying, selling, swapping through simplistic UX, you could abstract that. Um bridging assets, you could abstract that. Uh liquidity pool management, you could abstract that. So all of these certain things that people have to do as founders, you could basically just do through an AI.

19:38>> I also think that they could be solving problems. So one of one of the biggest problem up when especially when working with founders is market makers is a bit of are a bit of a problem unfortunately. So um you know you've got bits that went under you've got all sorts of other market makers that have predatory practices. Um non-transparent fees uh

20:01there are sort of like you you end up in situations where market makers can potentially be incentivized to sell your token which is obviously to your disadvantage. Um, and so it would be very simple honestly to pull together an algorithm and have an AI just do it. So it's like you we we I want to be finding things that are worth solving um that could be tedious, annoying things that

20:21you could just make more efficient as well as things that are like actually broken um and have been broken for a while. Mhm. Do you feel like we're on the cusp of that functionality where in both of those parallels you can just like when can people to start text to trade in in terms of AI actually being able to control your wallet or or create the token for you?

20:45>> It's actually already here. I mean there are that are already doing it. There are um protocols like hey anon for example is a good is a good one who is doing it. um codeex which is like a platform that lets you create agents with like a simple trading strategy. So you might create an agent that buys ETH every time it goes down 5% and sells ETH every time

21:04it goes up 5% and it just runs it in the background for you. >> So there are um essentially what I would define it as is fringe experimentation of the concept. Nothing's really caught on from product market fit perspective. Nothing's really grown just yet. And I think it's mostly because, you know, you're giving asset control to potentially an unsafe or not 100% built

21:27entity, if that makes sense. But I think very quickly once we've gotten through this experimental phase, and we're actually about to start beginning our own experimental phase, which is very exciting. Um, once we get through that, you'll start to see it more often, very, very soon. >> Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing more AI functionality. And can you talk about

21:45where tokenize is at right now with what's capable and we know the AI stuff's in the future but can can you actually get started on on the basics right now? >> Yes. So we have two key tracks basically. So we've got build which is all of the tokconomics and stuff and then we have track which is where you can track assets uh when it gets to market. So the metaphor we sort of use

22:09is we can help people build a really nice airplane and then we can help them stop flying it into mountains because that seems to be that's the way through space right now. No one's got like you know the the the autopilot or the telemetry and it the car the plane is off into the Hindenburg. So we can help you build something better help you stop flying into a mountain tracker basically

22:28analyzes digital asset markets using the prop like not proprietary but we it uses the data that we have on access. So what we've actually done is we've we've built physical nodes that scrape blockchain data and we have been essentially training our LLM with that blockchain data. >> So it's terabytes and terabytes and terabytes of information that is very

22:47specific to digital assets which is really useful um and helps you to to build a very quick understanding as to opportunities in the market where you could be longing and shorting. And we're actually about to start an experiment internally where we're like our money, our personal money, and put it into the market with our insights and start to basically build a case study around uh

23:08around this concept around being able to trade and successfully hopefully trade out trade the market. >> That's uh that's amazing. And you know, Pump Fund, I don't know if it got it got really successful and they then they did their own token launch and they raised like billions and they made it so easy for companies to or just people to create tokens uh without you know all of

23:33these intricacies of the importance of tokconomics which we talked about in the beginning. Um what do you see in the importance of streamlining something to make it so easy but of course add all these important parts like the like the tokconomics and and launching I you know launching and managing is super success super important and I think that's probably where pump fund fell short um

23:56because probably most of the projects I think I saw the stats 99% of them >> after a few days were down. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And actually, you know, I think if funds credit, and I always like to give credit where credit is due, they've done a good job. Like they've clearly found a product market fit and and clearly found a demographic and a use case for their particular

24:15thing, but in my mind, I I totally disassociate pump funds tokens >> with digital assets essentially. >> So, so I would I would close more closely basket up pump fund with something like Facebook. it is it's closer to social media that you can just trade um these these tokens that represent some sort sort of social hype or some sort of uh mimemetic culture if

24:44you think about it like that from that perspective and it also I guess it sort of lends as well into they had a very brief stage where they had like streaming and stuff like that. So again pump fun is basically closer to social media than it is to a platform that launches assets >> and I think that's really where we distinguish ourselves. We're not particularly like I think it's you again

25:04it's it has its own use case but we're not particularly interested in that side of crypto. We're more and you know like you said building out really good fundamentals strong economics that support actual assets that hopefully in time will become seen as closer to a stock or to real estate or to a commodity than it is seen to something like pump fun.

25:27>> Yeah, that's what I like to hear. And speaking of >> stocks, real estate, you know, every single company in the world could have stock. Do you think it's as simple as that that every company eventually should in the near future maybe look at a platform like like tokenize to tokenize at least their stock if not their other assets or real estate? >> Oh, I' I'd hope so. I'd love to think

25:52that. That would be amazing. Um, I also think it's like, uh, so where companies are at right now, I think there's there's a couple things that could be that could potentially potentiate. Not really sure yet. So, the first one is in my mind there could be a case where companies stop using traditional share structures and only use tokens as their form of ownership structure actually.

26:14And so like that would require of course likeation and tokeniz would have to be heavily compliant which is sort of what we're engineering our tooling for anyway. And that could be potentially an interesting shift because a lot of the customers who used are just over the traditional equity structures. You have to pay like like a good example of this in Australia

26:32when you set up a company you have to pay potentially capital gains tax on an asset that might not be worth anything in future. M >> so meaning if you've got you know equity structure right and you send out equity to to shareholders you may have to pay capital gains tax depending on how that process has been done and that's crazy because there's no liquidity event you

26:50haven't made any money yet and you probably won't make money for the next seven years >> why do I have to pay capital gains so companies are already sick of that fair enough and so I've actually seen and spoke to founders who have been looking at tokens differently as more of an ownership structure rather than just simply a utility coin so that's one

27:07interesting thing. The other thing is that you've got companies like Robin Hood who basically I assume what they've done is they just bought up a ton of private stock and then tokenized that private stock on their platform. >> Um and so you know you could you were an early investor in Stripe and you've just got you literally just holding stock that is not on a public market but then

27:27you go out and tokenize it and you bring it to a public market. Mhm. >> So I think that's interesting too. >> And if we started to see that if you started to see companies or third parties essentially taking control away from the founders, which would not be very fun, but you could do it technically. So you take control away from the founder, you say, "Look, I'm

27:44I've got some stock. I own some of your stock. I'm just going to tokenize it anyway. Something you can do. I can I can support liquidity. I can open the pools up. Whatever. The technology is easy." At that point, you may actually start to see founders feel forced into having to do something like that. I would prefer that they would choose, but it actually just might happen. Um, and I

28:02remember I can't remember his name, but the CEO of Robin Hood was speaking to the CEOs, I think it was of Stripe, and they literally said to him, "Please don't tokenize our stock because at a certain point, the technology exists, and if you have the stock sitting in your, you know, your bank account or wherever it's sitting, you could very easily then tokenize it on a

28:20blockchain." Mhm. Yeah. I I have a feeling like uh it's there's going to come a time where it's going to be there's going to be so many barriers and it's going to be so slow. I've talked to other or companies that are also working on tokenization of private markets and it's going to look like such a snail's pace on how stocks used to be once they become tokenized and everything moves

28:43around so much faster. And people that start companies, I don't know if it's even 5 to 10 years from now, people would be like, >> you have to this is the standard is like tokenized stock. >> Yeah, it's it's like it would be insane. I mean, it would be 247 markets constantly for everyone for always. Like I don't know if that's a good or bad thing. It might end up, you know, we

29:04might end up no one might not get any get any sleep anymore. But then you can also see where it's interesting. lends itself back into the AI because >> I as a human I can't monitor everything 24/7 but my AI definitely can >> definitely and I want to touch back on >> that AI part for for tokeniz and also just the road map um in all of these advancements as the industries are

29:26moving all of the industries are moving towards tokenization can you just uh recap your guys' road map for the AI integration and then just the road map for the rest of this year and how you envision growing Cool. Okay. Uh, a couple of things. So, we've got we're going to be coming out with a new product very very shortly. Um, actually towards the end of this

29:46month. So, that's going to be our tracker. People will be able to do deep analysis on assets and then very quickly figure out whether or not there's a short or a long or a buy or a sell opportunity essentially. We are also piloting this technology out with large scale treasury managers. So, helping them both to prune their treasury and also help them to grow their portfolios.

30:03We will then also be piloting this technology internally with our own sort of internal asset fund management fund where we'll be looking at liquid assets and opportunities in the markets for us to be using this technology and applying it towards it. Um and then towards the end of the year uh we're sort of estimating Q4. We imagine tokenized version two will be out in the world and

30:24that will essentially be a full composition of everything that you might need for the build, the launch and the management of a digital asset. Amazing. And what's the best way for people to, you know, get started on on the first step on building and figuring out the details? Uh, do you just get started right on on on tokenize or, you know, do you sort of read about the parts? How

30:47would new companies or influencers or whoever wants to create a token get started? >> You got you just jump in, you got to get your feet wet, jump on to you jump on tokeniz.te and start to get a feel for it. I mean, I've written so much literature around tokconomics 101 and all that sort of stuff. And it all exists in our resource page on on the tokenized website. So, you know, if you

31:06really feel like it, you can always, you know, if you're a bit of a scholar, you can study up. Um, but I always say it's best to get your feet wet. You know, it doesn't cost you anything to to build a model basically, and you don't have to launch the thing. So, you might as well just jump in and start having a play. >> Yeah. Yeah, that sounds great. And I

31:21agree, you know, with Bitcoin as well, although it does cost you something to to get Bitcoin, but there's no better way to learn about Bitcoin than to just get $5 of it and have it on your phone. >> Exactly. >> Because you can read about it forever, but until you actually get some, uh, you won't understand how amazing it is and and how amazing tokenization is going to

31:39be. and it is right now, but as it grows out into the financial markets and uh all of the other markets of the world and the derivatives to quadrillion dollar market cap all on the blockchain, it's coming and uh I'm excited to be here for it. Yeah, definitely. And I I appreciate your expertise on the tokconomics side and launching a token. It's very important for companies that

32:03that are planning to tokenize to understand the intricacies of how they can set it up for success. Um, I'm wishing you and the team at Tokenize all the best. I'm looking forward to the AI launch as well. I'm going to check out the the site right now uh in today's version um on just getting the build ready and as you said doesn't cost you anything. So, I would recommend checking

32:25that out and then would love to follow up with you as the AI version grows out and as more companies realize that tokenization is here to stay and they should get on it. I mean, I'm hoping that in a couple of months time I can show you a big fat portfolio that we've managed to grow using the AI. That would that's the goal right now. That's the goal.

32:44>> Definitely. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it, Daniel. Uh, thank you so much for taking the time and and let's follow up again in the near future. >> Awesome. Thanks for your time, Ashton. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me.