Jerry Fragiskatos on Apex Fusion’s vision for blockchain interoperability

0:00I'm Ashton Addison from the Cryptocoin Show and today on blockchain interviews we have Jerry Fraiscatos, co-founder of Apex Fusion and CEO of HAL 8. Here to discuss the multi-chain future of blockchain uh DAP development and where we see the industry going and so much more. Jerry, welcome to the show and thanks for taking the time. >> Great to be here, Ash. Thanks for the

0:21invite. >> Yeah, excited to dive more into multi-chain and blockchain interoperability. I truly believe and I think everyone agrees that chains need to work together uh and not just liquidity but in full interoperability if we're going to grow the blockchain system and take over the financial system and and however else it's plans to take over the world. Uh so excited to

0:41dive into your insights and what you and the team and all the developers have been building at Apex Fusion and how 8. Let's just kick it off on a high level with a bit on the work you and the team have been working on over the past few years and then we can dive into all the details. >> Sure. I mean ultimately when blockchain is going to be universally adopted

1:02people will not know what infrastructure they're using in the back end kind of the way the internet works today. I mean the way that we've boo bootstrapped our industry was very much through tribalism and you know memes and culture and all this kind of stuff. But when, for example, the Clarity Act passed in the United States and big corporations are g

1:21are given a blueprint about how they can use crypto, they're just going to want to use the best the fastest, you know, the most usable platform that they can. >> So, I come from the web two world. That was most of my career. I was a I'm an engineer by training and I've done mostly large scale IT in the web two world and we're entering that phase where we have a lot of different

1:41blockchains but they don't really interoperate very well with each other and during that phase this is was the big the big movement of middleware that came out with web 2 you know your VMares your oracles and so forth allow different systems to communicate with each other so in the crypto space there is an analog so there are two kind of let's call them large scale technology

2:01ology stacks that the entire industry is built on. One is called UTXO based which is what Bitcoin was built on and uh one is called accountbased which is what Ethereum is built on and so forth. They each have their technological tradeoffs. largely speaking the UTXO chains which which is to say Bitcoin, Cardano, Dogecoin, Litecoin, there's like a stack

2:27of those uh technologies built with UTXO and largely speaking they're a store of value and UTXO is very very good for high assurance deterministic uh use cases. Okay. and $2 trillion dollars of our industry is stored in that side of the tech stack mostly point. Um, and then you've got the rest of the world which is an accountbased system. And if you think to really

2:53simplify for the lay person, UTXO is analogous to cash and account base is analogous to bank account. And so on the account-based systems like Ethereum, so on and so forth, um, it's far more programmable, right? But it has less of the security characteristics of UTXM. >> So we said, okay, let's let's look at the last 10 years and more of technology buildup in our space and let's build

3:17something to solve this problem. And what we came to is a tri-chain architecture where each chain solves one part of the the classic trilmma of the blockchain um and does it and very specifically tackles that particular problem. So we have three chains and the big news as of today is that all three chains are on mainet. So our entire platform is on mainet and so the big

3:40call to action is going to be for DAPs to come on our chain and start developing on our chain. We launched Prime, our settlement layer back in February, and that's a pure decentralization layer that issues the token called Apex, which we've branded AP3X to kind of distinguish it from the other Apex tokens in our ecosystem. And we launched that on some centralized exchanges at

4:05the beginning, and that was purely to bootstrap our network. So we have the decentralization layer, which is called Prime, and has no execution layer. So you could think of it as proof ofstake Bitcoin ultimately is what it is and some of the characteristics it has is it has the security characteristics of Bitcoin but it also also has some of the economics of proof ofstake systems and

4:25more specifically liquid staking. So it's it's natively liquid staking that we have on a prime >> and we have two layer twos or side chains that we built on top of them. One called Vector and one called Nexus. Vector is a UTXO based chain but with smart contract execution capabilities has fast finality and so you can imagine this as a UTXO based chain that has a more salon

4:50baselike experience. So you have the security characteristics that inherits from prime but then has the speed because it has less validators decentralized. Then we have Nexus, our third chain, which is an EVM compatible chain. And just to give an idea of what technology they're built on, Prime and Vector are built on the Cardano stack. And Nexus is built with uh Polygon Edge,

5:13which are the stacks that have gone the farthest in terms of AD uh adoption and so forth in the enterprise and and those use cases. >> So we have all three chains that are live and we're inviting DAPs to develop on them, but we don't live in a bubble. So part of the puzzle that we're trying to solve here is we got $2 trillion of value on the UTXO side, $2 trillion of

5:33value on the EVM side or the accountbased side, but there's very little flow of value and so forth between them. So our platform is a great spot to start. We're not tribal. We encourage people to go crosschain. We encourage people to deploy on other chains. In fact, our us ourselves are multi-chain and I'll get into that in a minute. And so when you develop on Apex

5:55Fusion, there is no vendor lock in. >> So you could use the UTXO stack and then ultimately expand to the communities that are UTXO based >> or use the EVM stack and then expand to communities that are EVM based. And we're happy for adapt to live on other chains, have their token on our chain or vice versa. And the way that we've done this is through bridging.

6:17And so that allows for the cross flow of value between these two large technology stacks. >> And so we have two main bridging technologies. One is called Skyline. It's our our our provider that we partner with that attaches the UTXO side. And this is where we can get tokens like ADA, like Bitcoin, like Line to come into our ecosystem. And then we've partnered with layer zero, which

6:39is the industry leader in um crosschain globally speaking in our space. And that's where we bridge over to the rest of the world and they're bridge with 150 chains. And we've already kind of drunk our own champagne and we've started with our own token Apex. We're already in the Cardano ecosystem. We use Skyline to bridge our token to the Cardano ecosystem. It's called CAPEX and it's

7:03already in all the D5 protocols. So you can swap it, you can borrow lend it and so on and so forth. And we even have a staked asset that takes advantage of liquid the liquid staking aspect of our chain and it accumulate rewards then within that um token. It's available on VIFI the DEX that's on Cardano and you can get a token that natively secures our chain and you can get rewards on

7:27another chain. So you can secure our chain while existing on an on a different chain. And then the other big and the announcements coming out today is we bridge with layer zero to base. Now, BAS is just in terms of the strategy and Coinbase backing and so forth is just an excellent hub for liquidity. And so, our token is listed on Quick Swap and it's also listed on

7:50Aerodrome on Bass. And we're working closely with Bass to be kind of our liquidity hub because of we're just very bullish on their strategy, what they're doing. >> They ask the 100 million using the Coinbase and so forth and then we'll expand from there. So we've created a system where you could deploy your DAP on our system or another chain and then

8:09we'll crosschain. Either start your DAP on our system, put in another chain or have your DAPs on other chains and bring your token to our chain and then have a crosschain liquidity uh super high essentially. >> And we've also partnered with with Stargate which allows us to bring stable coin liquidity. So we have USDC that that can be bridged over into our

8:29ecosystem as well. As you know, the big move this year was the Genius Act. Stable coins are one of the few things that have found real product market fit in our space and it's really the oil of the engine. And so you need sufficient stable coin liquidity to make things run. So what we've created a platform ready for the Clarity Act, ready for enterprise or any or anybody in the web

8:503 space to build on and not have [clears throat] the fear of vendor lock in. Right? >> The biggest problem now is I think projects must spend a lot of time choosing which chain to start with. They don't know, right? >> They built all the plumbing where you could start with us and expand anywhere. >> And I think that's our superpower ultimately. So there's like, you know,

9:08there and there was an expression back in the day where I used to work in web in web 2 that you never get fired for choosing IBM, right? This is very similar is that you'll never get fired for choosing Apex Fusion because you can always expand to any other chain and you will not have a hostile community once you do that. once you do. So, in fact, we've invested in the plumbing like

9:29layer zero and Stargate to allow you to do that natively. So, that's really the value proposition. And then one last thing and I'll open the floor to to other questions is our vector chain is our technological crown jewel. Vector being UTXO based and also hasll based which is a functional programming language really targets high assurance cases. So Haskell in the traditional

9:53world is used for things like ATMs that uses functional programming, satellites, aerospace and finance. So anything where there's zero tolerance to error, they use that programming paradigm. So vectors really are focused in terms of our target market for DAPs ultimately and then Nex is there for [clears throat] the interoperability. So that's really the way we constructed the

10:15the entire platform >> and it's making today [clears throat] >> that that's very exciting Jerry and yeah there's a lot of moving parts that uh hopefully you when you get past the developer stage as you mentioned at the beginning you know people don't need to get mainstream adoption they don't need to worry about the infrastructure you've sort of laid it all out so that people

10:34can have a DAP uh they can go put their funds in and not have to worry about oh I want to connect to this other DAP on this other programming language we can just make it all interoperable behind the scenes. And you know, you spoke there about the UTXO chains and how there's over$2 trillion dollars of value in there, mainly in Bitcoin, which is of course important, but there's Cardano

10:57and Litecoin as well. And there's not as much programmability as there are in Ethereum and the account-based chains. Uh, but there's a lot of value there that could be unlocked if there was more programmability. How much of a focus is that on maybe Bitcoin specifically? because you know institutional money and the trillions of dollars that could become tens of trillions soon if they

11:19can find other ways to utilize that value in DAPs or in other kinds of financial products. Um can you hone in a little bit more on Apex Fusion's ability to bring functionality to the Bitcoin chain? >> Sure. So in terms of liquidity that's been I would say largely solved for Bitcoin. There's a lot of wrap Bitcoin products in the accountbased worlds >> that have significant TVL. Like I think

11:46WP Bitcoin is $20 billion or something like that in terms of TVL. So from a TVL liquidity standpoint, I think that problem has been largely solved. That hasn't been solved for the other UTXO based chains like Cardano, Litecoin, Dogecoin, >> Zcash is also UTXO based chain. >> So that hasn't been solved there. That has very little liquidity on the EVM

12:07side. So our target in terms of liquidity bridging would be those other chains. For Bitcoin specifically, the Vector chain used the same technological stack. It's Nakamoto consensus. It's UTXO based and so forth. So any DAP technologically built as a layer 2 on on Bitcoin can function on Vector quite easily. So and of course we will also bridge Bitcoin over to our ecosystem.

12:31Okay, that could be done from two directions because you could do it directly from Bitcoin with Skyline and have our own wrap Bitcoin, but then there's also a large available uh choice of wrap Bitcoin products on the EVM side. So, think of wrap BTC, think of CBTC, which is the Coinbase version of BTC and so forth. So, that can come very easily through layers on

12:52the other side. So, the liquidity side of Bitcoin has been solved. I think the technological uh part of it or the technological engagement has not been solved. There's a lot of projects working that there's a lot of layer twos that are are being built on Bitcoin, but they haven't done it in the way that we've done it and make it really natively interoperable

13:12with the EVM stack. And I think that's where our superpower comes in with the Bitcoin community. And we will get there. We started with Cardano as kind of our base and we want to get that fully functional and fully working and fully tested and so forth and then we can comfortably move to the Bitcoin world and we can very easily go to the DAPs that are being built in the layer

13:332s and h invite them to build on vector and ve it does have an execution layer does have a smart contract layer but is also very very fast. >> Mhm. Yeah. Uh I saw the the news about the the Cardano uh link which is cool and I'd love to touch on that as well because you know I I'm my realm is more in the Ethereum and the accountbased ecosystem because the network effect has

13:57been there and I know Cardano has a huge multiund billion dollar market cap and there's some huge fans of it but I think it's before Apex Fusion it's a bit of a a silo of like the Cardano fans are in there and they're trying to find a way to get out um or to expand that into the accountbased with something like Apex, but maybe you can touch on a little bit

14:18more on why Cardano was chosen as that that first major integration and the development on there. You know, what are the key pieces that are missing for them to succeed and for others to bring success into Cardano? >> Sure. I mean when we started I was the chief commercial officer over at Cardano before I started Apex Fusion >> and so we are solving a commercial

14:42problem. I think Cardano has phenomenal technology in terms of Nakamoto consensus, proof ofstake, liquid staking, a UTXO based system with smart contracts, the functional programming, all that stuff is gold. Where it's lacking is the commercial link. So, it's lacking scalability, right? And they're working on various different initiatives to get that done. There's Hydra and Laos

15:05and a whole bunch of deep research projects that are working on that part of the puzzle. We're just solving it now today, >> right? And we're doing it in aatic way by having vector as a fast finality. And we have one of the original architects of Cardano that worked on it, Duncan Coots. Um, and we have a paper that actually shows that it's fast finality.

15:27So what Cardano is missing is two very simple things. It's missing a fast finality high throughput chain which we're providing through Vector. It's missing on interoperability which we're providing with our with our bridging play. And it's missing stable coin liquidity. And the reason why it's specific stable liquidity is because Cardano is a very idealistic I would say future future

15:50[snorts] uh looking platform and they're quite allergic to centralization. they're quite allergic to like you know uh USDC and stable coins and so forth because they feel it's a vector of of more control and they focus more on decentralization and that to their credit this is what they've done and they're creating >> you know more and more decentralized

16:11system >> our vector chain takes a bit of a trade-off prime chain is decentralized and that's we said decentralization is great for the but it's not great for execution >> so our vector chain has less validators and has a It's actually tweaked for performance. So we took Cardano and we made it more performant >> and therefore it's a faster, cheaper,

16:31less decentralized chain and that solves the scalability problem. >> And by doing that, we've solved the last puzzle of Cardano because once you've done that, you've unlocked programmability, scalability, stable coin liquidity, and so forth to the Cardano community. And this moves both ways. And so we're perfectly happy for Cardano DAPS down. Our token is there.

16:52You could you could buy CSD Apex and secure our network through Cardano. And if you're a purist and you don't want to move from Cardano, you could stay in Cardano. >> If you want to try a new technology, you can get onto Vector. And we already have a pipeline of DAPs that will deploy in Vector and you can get a faster, cheaper experience with more liquidity, which is

17:12the part the puzzle that's been missing from Cardano. Now they're solving it more long-term, more decentralized and so forth. Once they've done that, we can also adopt that and bring it to our chain and vice versa. We're going to have our own innovation track and when we have breakthroughs on our side, you could transfer that to Cardano. >> At the end of the day, the end user when

17:32we get to the billion users, right, or the multi-billion users, they're not going to care what infrastructure in the background. They just want to work ultimately. >> So my entire pitch is probably geared more towards builders, right, who understand the technology. But for an end user, you know, when you have your, you know, your your your cell phone or

17:51your smartphone, you have no idea what kind of what RAM stacking, whether it's Samsung or LG or what screen you have. You don't care. All you care is that it works. >> So, we are completing the plumbing to allow Cardano to work properly, right? And the same could be said once we attach to Litecoin and to Dogecoin and to [clears throat] the other stack. Now,

18:12Bitcoin has a much more robust ecosystem of that. So that's a bit of a special case, but the rest of them kind of are in need for this type of thing. In [clears throat] fact, a lot of projects go crosschain by themselves. They start on B&B, for example, >> and it's a great place for liquidity, very crowded. It's red waters, as they say, from a marketing standpoint, and

18:32then they transfer their protocol to Cardano, get a native token there >> to get the community aspects of it, and they live on both chains. But that >> that's expensive. Like every DAP needs to do that by themselves. We provide the infrastructure and the plumbing where you can do that out of the gate. So you don't have to worry about multi-chain journey. The multi-chain journey is

18:50baked into the cake. >> And I think that's sort of a big value proposition that we have. >> Yeah. No, I agree and thanks for explaining that about uh the purists on Cardano and then trying to balance that you know functionality and and speed and finality with the decentralization because you know as you say for the end users they don't as long as it works and

19:13especially for corporations and enterprises you know the number one thing is that it works and it works well and if you know I they don't care necessarily about decentralization if you're giving up functional ity and and and value. Uh and that's I think why Cardano has been fighting that uphill battle of like let's try to keep these principles but it's not working as well

19:34if we would have just done it more centralized and sort of not followed the the thesis of of blockchain. >> Yeah, it it it closes off certain segments of the market just to keep it super simple, right? That's ultimately what it does. But it also doesn't live up to its whole potential because the functional programming side of it, the UTXO, the determinism, the the

19:57formal methods that they used are highly usable for high assurance use cases. And once those start to come into fruition, you know, the compliance officer, the security officer, they're going to look at the EVM stack and they're going to say, "This is this is not sufficiently secure. We want a functional programming high assurance codebase." And that

20:15Cardano has that to offer. But if you want a scale of enterprise, you need to have it as you know uh high speed and low low fees. In fact, vector can also be copied and created as a private chain, right? And you can use as a private chain. >> So an enterprise their journey could start as a private version of vector use that for their higher use cases and then

20:35when they need a public connector, they can back to our ecosystem. So by creating a multi-chain hub, you can also attach other chains in the future like layer 3es or layer depending on how the nomomenclature is going to end up uh you know their side chains or layer twos or layer 3es. We're still early in the phase of defining what each thing of these each one of these things mean.

20:56Like I said, ultimately the end user doesn't care. They just care that it works, that it's secure, that it's fast, that it's cheap. That's what they care about, right? >> And definitely. And with that, you know, security, especially when you're moving financial assets, whether it's a small amount or or more importantly a big amount, uh, if you're moving them

21:13between chains, you know, in the past that with the traditional bridging, you know, it it it wasn't 100% secure. At least sometimes somewhere something goes wrong and people lose assets or hackers come and and make it so that somebody lost their assets through theft or through some issue with the code. Um, and I'm sure as the compliance officer before, you know, you're well aware of

21:38making sure that it's compliant and secure as sort of the utmost importance. Can you talk about the the Skyline bridge and sort of the interoperability between chains and and how to make sure nothing goes wrong and it works perfect? >> Sure. So, Skyline again is a partner of ours called Eternal. They're quite large in the EVM world. They're a group of solid PhDs

22:03that have been in this business for a long time that have security top of mind. They even have a technology called Blade, which is a enterprise version of an EVM blockchain and so forth. So they're they're at the top of the tier and spent more time on Skyline than we did on our other chains and it has decentralization. It's got multiple layers of security and so forth to make

22:24sure that these things don't happen. Also, we're going to start slow and move and move and and move move slowly with the bridge. In other words, there's limits to how much you can bridge at this period of time. And over time, as it's battle tested in the real world and we make sure that it's 100% like, you know, solid, then we can expand that, right? So being very methodical, we know

22:45that bridging is a vector and we spent specifically a lot of time on it and it's a decentralized bridge with all the characteristics that you would need to solve the big bridging uh issues and attack vectors. On the EVM side, layer zero is the the space leader >> in this type of thing. and they have a quite a unique techn technology that uses messaging between smart contracts

23:10and not actual transfer of value which is quite interesting. >> So they've solved it in in another way and um we've benefited also from that uh archite and that paradigm. So we spent quite a lot of time on the bridging side of it and to make sure that it's that as secure as possible. Mhm. Oh, that's really good to know. And of course, it's um I'm sure it'll be monitored and then

23:35when you unleash the limits um and bigger players get in, you know, it'll be more battle tested with the, you know, the development you, you know, you've put a focus on, okay, the development is live um for developers to start building DAPs and make it uh crosschain, interoperable. What do you think is part of the key to getting more web 2 developers like yourself, you

23:58know, at least aware or having the thought of, hey, I should really start moving into web 3 like you did. >> So for me, having been immersed in web 2, I saw a lot of the issues the web 2 has, right? So the data protection side of things in other words you get the platform for free but the company like Facebook accumulates all of the value for the data right this so

24:26centralization is a big part of it right the self- sovereign part of it in the sense that you know you know not your keys not your coins right >> um where you can actually have be a self-s sovereign actor >> um and you can actually have something to yourself so when you have your money in a bank for example it's not your money when you have your money in a

24:45blockchain, it is your money because you have the keys, you don't access it. >> So those are the two big I think paradigm shifts that happened with blockchain. It's really solving a lot of the issues that web 2 had. Also, there is no native transfer of value on the internet until Bitcoin came around. >> And now we're seeing, you know, AI agents and so forth using that X42, I

25:09think it's called, payment rails. >> That's never going to happen on fiat rails. that has to happen on blockchain rails. It could be bitcoin, it could be stable coins, >> uh but it has to happen on blockchain rail. So it also solves the whole AI agent economy problem. And then the last part of it is authentication, right? So uh in the world now of deep and AI and

25:30so forth, it's very difficult to know what's real and what's not. >> And the ultimate use case, I think, for uh blockchain is going to be authentication. So you can imagine >> right now we're on a Zoom call. you don't really know if I'm a human or not. I could be an AI uh deep fake video, right? >> And they're getting so good that you can't really tell any.

25:53>> The only way to really solve that problem is through cryptography, right? Is to have a cryptographic wallet, which blockchain has solved, and you'd probably log in with your cryptographic wallet, and you or with a proof, you know, call it proof of human, you know, I think that's another huge use case. So, blockchain's brightest days are ahead of it. The biggest hurdle has been

26:11regulatory clarity >> and mostly in the United States. I think you know jurisdictions like Singapore uh you know the UAE and now even Europe or Mika have largely solved the regulatory uh overhang but the US has not. We have a lot of hope with the clarity act that once that gets passed it's going to provide that clarity. Um but we're not there yet. We're at that phase where I

26:36think once that passes, you're going to have a flood of companies trying to figure out how to use a blockchain and they're not going to have any idea where to start, right? >> They're not going to know. They're either going to go to Ethereum because that's it's has a big brand name, right? Um or go to Salana because it's got a big brand name, but then they get stuck

26:56in that ecosystem. They don't know how to get out. We're kind of building the plumbing where it's vendor agnostic. I mean, I used to work for Dell, so this is kind of like VMware, >> right? So VMware goes on any you can use any ultimately so it doesn't lock you in. This is kind of very similar. So that's going to be our pitch to enterprise is that you could start with

27:12us and go anywhere. So you don't get vendor lock in. And also the team that we that we put together um largely comes from traditional business and traditional finance and traditional uh it right. >> We do have some web three people but we're largely web two veterans that got into web 3. >> And so we know of how to speak the language of enterprise. We know how to,

27:34you know, talk to them, how to, you know, uh do the business development with them and so forth. So that's going to be a big part of our our our roadmap moving forward. That's really exciting, Jerry. And you're right um on that two parts about uh AI agents and and robots as well as AI content. It's it's getting a little ridiculous right now. We definitely need

27:56some blockchain with uh the AI content on, you know, YouTube and Instagram. You can't tell there's not enough clarity on, you know, there's a a new song that comes out and and everyone's like, "This is amazing." And it's really not clearly written that it's AI. It's sort of like a little disclaimer in the corner. You wouldn't even be able to tell. And and

28:16same on on X and and all the other social media platforms. You know, once you watch one AI video, the algorithm shows you all AI and there's no disclaimer saying, you know, this actually isn't real, >> right? Whereas in if you're using a cryptographic wallet, if you're if you're if you're if the content doesn't come from that uh vector, then you you

28:39have to not trust it, right? As a default, you'd only trust kind of the ones from verified sources, right? Which would be through a cryptographic wallet. You could also imagine that, you know, let's say you have a smartphone taking a video. it'll take some metadata from that location and so forth and confirm that it's actually been taken >> from a live camera without modification,

29:00right? And then that hash would assure >> that if it's modified, you know immediately it's been modified, right? And so this is I think this is a big frontier that hasn't been explored yet. The other big there's two big ones that I think will be more imminent. One is capital formation. So, we saw recently with Coinbase uh acquiring Echko um and their push with

29:22Monad and the recent launch with Monad that they're seeing into the future already and they know that startups in the future will not be raising capital traditionally through IPOs. They'll be using the blockchain. >> That's a no-brainer use case as far as I'm concerned. It offers so much more flexibility. It's so it's it's much less expensive >> and so forth to do. You can imagine a

29:44startup comes up and you know launches a token that represents a product line not even company >> and so capital formation I think is a massive part of it and then RWAS you know real world assets >> I think is [clears throat] be another obvious >> uh market for blockchain moving for more imminently closer into the future once the clarity act passes.

30:05>> Yeah. No, I agree and and I'm looking forward to it. The future is bright. I'm looking forward to 2026 and uh the development of more DAPs in the ecosystem and all of the chains working together as well. You know, you got to work together at this size of >> and Yeah, exactly. And I appreciate what Apex Fusion is doing in making that ecosystem to make the development easy

30:29and interoperable um for people that want to learn more about the technology because you know it it's very exciting but there are definitely uh a few moving pieces to it. What's the best way to follow along with the development and for developers to to test out you know getting started on it? >> So our X channel is a great place to start because it has all the links or

30:49you can go to our website www.apexfusion.org. Uh we have a Swiss foundation. Um so our token is actually uh been certified as being utility token. So we've got FINma compliance. >> Um and then the labs is based out of Abu Dhabi. I'm the CEO of that labs and we have a US entity that's waiting for clarity in the US to to open up. And so we have you know multi-jurisdictional

31:15uh uh uh coverage I would say. >> So start with the website. That's where you get all the information or RX channel. Start there. Um, and then you know come on a journey with Apex YouTube. >> Definitely. I I will leave the link in the show notes to all of that and the socials in the platform. Appreciate your insights into multi-chain everything from AI content agents development uh

31:40UTXO ecosystems versus accountbased. Uh there's so much to to keep up on as all of these different chains are all growing together. make sure let's keep them interoperable and I would love to follow up again in the near future. Jerry, >> fantastic. Thank you for your time, Ashton.