Rebecca Liao on Saga’s growth with 400 apps since mainnet launch

0:01I am Ashton Addison from the Cryptocoin Show and today on Blockchain Interviews, we have back with us Rebecca Liao, co co-founder and CEO of Saga. Rebecca, welcome back to the show and it's great to have you here. Thanks so much for having me, Ashton. It's been a little while. Um, but I'm very happy to be back and like nothing happened in the last year, right? So, nothing to talk about

0:21today. Yeah, so much. And, um, I know that it was just the one-year anniversary of the mainet for Saga as well. So, we could dive into that. I would love to start high level um for those that you know need a deep dive into saga and the layer one for layer ones uh everything that the team has been building throughout the last year and where it's currently at and then we

0:43can dive into all the latest details. Yeah, absolutely. Um well, thanks so much for having me on again. It's great to be with you. So Saga is still the same. We are a layer one to launch layer ones and what that means is anyone who builds on Saga is by definition on their own chain or set of chains which we call chainlets and each one of these is a fully decentralized proof ofstake chain.

1:06Um which means it is your own layer one. Um all of our layer ones speak to one another because the system is fully interoperable and so we encourage people to think of layer ones and chains um just like servers in cloud. Um so you should have as many of these as you need in order to support the performance of your application. Um so a year on um it's been a really really fruitful

1:30period. Uh so let's start with the builders first. Our saga innovator program which is our ecosystem program that currently has 450 projects in it. Um it's a huge amount. Not all of them are live. Um there are currently 140 projects that are on chains at the moment. Um obviously we want projects to take their time, think about when they want to go to market, think about when

1:50they want to move um their development uh from Denver um staging environments over to prod but um at the same time uh we we are pushing everyone through a successful go to market uh once they are able to go live. Um a lot of the focus uh when we launched was on gaming and entertainment. That is still the case. However, we have changed up our strategy

2:13significantly. So um we launched Saga Origins uh March last year uh which is our own publishing house and that is honestly where a lot of our gaming efforts sits and um towards the end of last year we hired in Fernando Vasconz who is um now our head of game partnerships and investments but he was previously head of BD for gaming at Samsung. Uh and then before that he led

2:38LBD for ROIO. Um, so he has been in the games industry for 20 plus years and we had been working closely for the previous two years because Samsung is an early investor in Saga. Um, but I really wanted to bring him on full-time because it's very clear now that web3 gaming as it existed was a failure and so we needed um to completely change text. It's not that gaming is not suited for

3:00crypto, it's just that the strategy was completely wrong. Um, so our strategy now is entirely focused on bringing on traditional gaming titles that are already proven and successful. So they have at least 500,000 MAUs and they are profitable. Um, which means that they're not just uh taking in revenue and making sales. They are covering their costs and

3:20then some. So these titles are proven, they are derisked. Um, they are finished. So we do not wait for them to be completed. And um, they are looking to crypto for monetization. And that's honestly what the space is very good for is monetization. Um, and how can you further plum crypto rails for better user acquisition, retention, and increasing the lifetime value of your

3:43player base. Um, so GDC this year was enormously fruitful for us. Um, I can go into more details about all the different debuts that we had. Um, we had seven AI agent demos, all of which were firsts in the world of AI agents in crypto for sure and in gaming. Um, so it's it's been uh an enormously free-for-all strategy paired with the fact that we have a huge emphasis on AI

4:07agents here at Saga. Um, it's a really really exciting time. Uh, last piece I'll I'll mention is um liquidity integration layer. So before we had um little um that's what we call it. We did not have DeFi on saga at all. Um so it was an entirely fragmented liquidity landscape. But now we have integrated that liquidity and anyone who launches on saga has the same liquidity

4:31environment as any monolithic L1. So everything is composable. Um you are able to access liquidity immediately across our decks and other D5 primitives. And um that has been a huge game changer for all the projects that are building on here. So it's been a busy year. That's amazing. Yeah. Um, I want to touch on all three and more of of those topics that you mentioned. Um, it it's

4:56great to see that there's still a lot on the gaming side, uh, which was the most important when you guys launched. It's still a huge factor. U, and I I've seen some great potential web 3 games that were like being hyped for a few years. And of course, it takes a long time to build a great game. Uh, anybody that is in gaming knows that it's not something

5:18you can do in a couple months. Like some of the greatest games have taken years and years to build, never mind adding in crypto. So, I I do think that there is a synergy and a value ad in adding tokenization and crypto into games. It's just a matter of that balance. So seeing Saga pair up with already good games, I think that's a great strategy. From when

5:40I remember uh a couple years back when web 3 gaming was like it was very hyped but they hadn't figured it out yet. There was a bit of hesitancy from the traditional games worried that it was going to hurt their monetization or I think you know some Minecraft or some of the other ones even said you know we're we're definitely not going into crypto. I feel like they're going to change

6:01their mind eventually, but where is that at with the traditional games deciding how they're going to start implementing the tokenization and making sure that it adds revenues, not takes away? Yeah. So, I I think there are two key factors there. One is gaming is still gaming. It is escapism. It is entertainment. And so, the game itself has to be great

6:22quality. And I think that, you know, it's it's a very simple set of words, right, to say that a game has to be fun. And I think every single chain out there, every single crypto project that had any aspirations in gaming kept saying that again and again and again, which is a game has to be fun. It does have to be fun. But what does that actually mean? It means that there is an

6:41addictive game loop. It means that the art direction is like good, but it's really about the addictive game loop. And um honestly, in traditional gaming, this is very hard, too. This is not just a crypto problem. Um it's hard to make it in gaming in general. And I think that what happened um with a lot of these uh hotly anticipated titles in web3 gaming is that ultimately the game

7:05itself was not compelling enough or not different enough from what was in the market um in order to attract a really great gamer base. Um so that's that's one thing um that people had to focus on which was ultimately just the quality of the game. take away the in-game economy um or or any external monetization factors. Just was the game enjoyable to

7:26play? Um I I said there were two things, but I'm going to mention three things. The second piece was every single um game studio knows exactly um what they need to crack when they're ready to go to market. This is why publishing exists in gaming as a subsector of the industry. Um, so you need significant resources in terms of user acquisition, in terms of building your community in

7:51advance of game launch, etc., etc. And I think that um, something that caused a lot of skepticism among traditional gaming when they looked at crypto games is even the ones that seem to have really great teams and really great resources completely missed the part about user acquisition, they just believed that a token would take care of it. and a token can definitely help, but

8:14it cannot take care of it entirely. Uh, and so there was already a little bit of, you know, I don't think we're speaking the same language. Um, I don't think you understand the dynamics of the game industry if you don't worry at all about user acquisition. Um, so that was that was the second contributing factor. And then the third thing is pump and dump. So,

8:33um, every game understands that a little bit of speculative premium is very healthy. So, Counterstrike, for instance, their assets famously do have speculative value built in. That's why they're so expensive. It's not just that they're incredibly valuable in the game or that people love Counterstrike. It is that um people think about the value that these assets will have in the

8:56future and then that gets priced in. So, a little bit of that is good, but I think there was too much of that um with uh tokens for games in in crypto. Uh, and so once the game launched, it was, you know, virtually guaranteed a certain floor, uh, in terms of launch, um, price. Uh, and then that sort of slowed the game down. Um, because from there on

9:19out, uh, the volatility turned off a lot of players. Um, but at the same time, the team was unsure as to what direction to take the game in in order to actually attract a user base. Um, so volatility, um, which is somewhat built into crypto, is something you have to solve for. Now, there are ways to do that with tokconomics. You just have to be really

9:38thoughtful about one, how the token integrates into the game. If you already have an in-game currency, does that token replace the currency or does it get added in addition to it? And maybe you have added services um that the token can be applied to. It doesn't have to touch the core game itself. Um so, those are options that you have available to you. For pure uh gaming,

9:59those are three things that we had to think very seriously about. Um, but honestly, you know, everyone needs a hook to get in, right? And I would say every game right now is working with us because of the agents. The agents are the differentiator. Um, having a token, having great monetization rails, it's more like, okay, you let me take out the spreadsheet and model out what kind of

10:18money this is going to make me. But in terms of new technology that excites both the developers and the gamers um and represents something truly new and innovative, it really is in the agents. That's really interesting. I' I'd love to learn more about that. And I've seen a lot throughout 2024 about AI agents and know the value that they can create, but it seemed like that value was always

10:43in the future. And I feel like in the last quarter there's been a a small shift into actual uh action that can be taken by the AI agents on behalf of people. It's no longer just typing into open AI and then receiving and then still having to do what it said. You know, we need to take that make that gap happen where the AI agents can actually make actions on our behalf and add more

11:05value. So what is the main way that AI and AI agents is adding that value inside of gaming? So the kind of AI agents that we specialize in are what we call consumer AI agents. Um so these are agents that are meant primarily for consumer purposes and oftent times they are originated or created by by humans by users themselves. Um and so the primary use case um for these agents is

11:34entertainment. I think what happened with AI agents before and this was true in crypto. This was also true um in the traditional gaming and entertainment industries uh and and at large in the AI agent space was that people thought of them in terms of function in terms of utility almost like how can I have an assistant um so uh in crypto for instance um AI agents really burst onto

11:57the scene as assistants for helping you launch meme points. Um, so that's where virtuals and Eliza first had their huge runup is these agents launched meme coins. Um, people really got into that. And then outside of the crypto space, um, honestly when we talk to game studios, production companies, what they think of agents doing is, um, really simplifying and, um, uh, making less

12:20expensive the process of developing a game. Um so instead of developers spending you know years uh hopefully an AI agent can help you shorten that to a year maybe a few months. Um and so again of as primarily um an efficiency driving mechanism right um so agents are great for that uh but you know coming from um uh the technology space where you've

12:46seen so many different tech trends you know take off over the last say 30 years. Um so everything from search to social media um to uh smartphones other smart devices um chat GPT other chat bots that are AI powered you have to have that consumer entertainment value um so you can't quite pinpoint that this has you know something useful that's actually going

13:10to uh make your you know your day more efficient um or make you more productive you have to actually enjoy spending time here um and so the AI agents that we have on Saga really empas empasize that piece and that's what's going to take it forward. Um so these agents are uh characters from the game. So at GDC we debuted three um agents that are existing game characters from very

13:32successful titles. You know one from Hero Hunters, 10 million plus downloads on Google Play. Um Carl which is talking strawberry and um distributed by Disney and has a billion plus views around the world. Um really popular kids character. Um Shaloon from Metaphora which is a newly released game from OB Entertainment. uh which is a studio behind Horizon, one of the best um

13:53PlayStation 4 games of all time. Um so these are existing characters and um you know you think about as a child like you u had a lot of fun playing Super Mario for instance you probably like imagine oh what would it be like to talk to you know Mario um when I'm bored um or when I like need a friend or whatnot. Uh, and so a lot of these agents fulfill that

14:16need first and foremost. Um, so the fan bases can talk um to the characters. They can um have the characters be co-pilots as they play the game. Um, they can buy things um from the agent that have to deal with the game. The agent can also give things away as parts. Uh, and so you start to see this feedback loop, um, between this always on AI agent that is a beloved character

14:38from the game, um, and, uh, deeper community engagement with the game itself. Um, so that's really the first positive loop that we're seeing, um, between AI agents and, and the games that they come from. Wow, that's very cool. And I recall growing up playing a lot of RPG games where I could definitely see that that main character, you know, there's a story and there's

15:01sometimes there's almost a narrator talking to him, but or her, but now it's they're actually talking to you and they can interact more more personally. So, I could definitely see where the value is in that. That's really really cool. I'm going to check out those AI agents. And you mentioned there also about the fact of efficiency and and creating the game.

15:20Uh I understand that developers in general, not just in coding everything, you know, 80% plus are now using AI to help code. Um but so that obviously helps in the gaming aspect build the game faster, but this is different or on top of what you're saying. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, so, um, what I'm talking about isn't really it. Even if a business is the one that's

15:48actually say purchasing this agent or using this agent, um, and is the main entity that we interface with, really the agent is meant for the consumer. It's meant for the consumer to interact with um, and with some of these AI agent launchpads that we have coming up. Um, including Kronogains, which is exclusive to us. Um and it's the first multiasset

16:10launchpad for ELISA agents. Um anyone can stand up a set of agents and these agents uh can issue tokens, they can issue NFTts but in terms of you know what can you do with these agents outside of the assets um all the agents are plugged into the major social channels. Um, so that includes Tik Tok, Insta, Meta, um, Twitter obviously acts, um, and, uh, it's able to interact, um,

16:39with the fan base, uh, even more across these channels. Uh, and so you're seeing that these agents are actually becoming extensions of any sort of IP that they come from, and it really does enhance that consumer experience. I do think that um initially and this is the case with any sort of creator platform that we've seen from web 2 um the users that

17:02generate content are going to think of it primarily as a forms uh as a form first of self-expression um and so you you know you put on that Tik Tok video and it shows you like getting ready for the day for instance and doesn't seem like anything at the time um but then it grows into more and more of a formalized form of self-expression and now every

17:21single creator out there does a get ready with me video, you know. So, I I think that that's how we see a lot of these agents evolving is they are first extensions of expression of the user themselves uh and then they will become more formalized into businesses. Yeah. No, that's really interesting. You know, I've many years ago before uh before AI really took off was the

17:43metaverse was, you know, the notion of it getting big. And I remember Meta, you know, started creating a metaverse and they had avatars and it seemed really bad quality at the time. And I think they they didn't maybe anticipate the the growth of AI and the function that would actually be coming. And I'm starting to see it. I don't I I don't think it's so seeped so far into web 2

18:07social yet, but we're starting to see it uh experimenting and starting to mature in web 3. Where do you think that's at with actually breaking out of blockchain and AI integrating into everyday content creators? So, I think that most content creators already use some form of AI tool. Um, that could be an agent that's very sophisticated. I'm sure that many of

18:31them use um at least say like chat GPT to help come up with their scripts or any sort of writing content they need to do. um some of them are already using um uh GPT40 for instance or grock or some sort of like image generation device um in order to enhance uh their content across more visual aspects as well. Um so there are a lot of AI tools being used uh in terms of you know what is

18:56that breakthrough moment. Um so I think that um it's a combination um of both sides pushing. So it's grassroots it's users uh using the agents to um again become extensions of themselves but then at the same time um what we're fascinated by is usually um traditional business. So entertainment for instance or gaming

19:23they take a lot of their cues from their player base um they're usually not the first ones to adopt technology but the interesting thing we're seeing here is that they are very game um to adopt this tech and so turning their characters into AI agents um that is on the initiative of these studios. Uh, so I think you're going to get the the push from both sides um to populate the world

19:46with more AI agents and honestly I you know the the mark of a really great consumer product is that you don't have to push too hard um for people to adopt it. The fact of the matter is you know product design is incredibly important. Um but consumers are actually pretty good at identifying the essence of a product. So what kind of itch does it scratch? Um going back to an early

20:09example for instance um so meta I I think a lot of people would agree the meta UI has not changed um since the inception and it is not a great UI. It isn't pretty to look at. It's not intuitive. Um it's not streamlined at all. But I think people understand that um the purpose of meta uh is um in order to connect with people maybe to show off a bit. Um that that is what social media

20:34is and consumers understood that pretty quickly. So I think with agents um the reason why we invested so much in them early on I mean I wrote a paper on this a year ago um talking about how AI agents were the future um of the multiverse and it's it's taken a year but it's coming to fruition now and the reason why I had such faith in it is I knew that agents were going to scratch

20:57an itch for people and that is the itch for expression it is also the itch for connection. So even if um you are not directly connecting with another person or you're not even connecting with a person um you're nevertheless able to form closer connections with things outside yourself through that agent. Um so in the end um it comes down to a lot of base instincts uh that determines

21:20what kind of technology gets adopted. Um but I I do think looping back to your original question um what's going to break through it is agents and particularly because it's getting pushed on from all sides. It's very cool. I'm looking forward to seeing how how it all grows and and plays out. And you mentioned at the beginning that there's hundreds of

21:41applications and many of them games as well on Saga that are haven't launched yet, but they're in the inner workings. Um, is there a a a point of the the market being right or getting that feedback loop of the actual game, which of course you said is the crux is the game first. Um, and in the near future, are there many games that are slated to come out? Like, do you have a do do they

22:07communicate the timeline to you and hey, we're launching this month? Yeah, absolutely. Oh, we know far in advance when a game is going to be launching, particularly if we have a very close working relationship with them. So, what we tell all games is launch your game. Launch your game. Um, there is no quotequote bad time to launch a game. Um, because if you think about the

22:26gaming calendar, there's always an excuse, right? Um so in the springtime you have GDC that is a big um venue at which to launch anything and you can always launch anything before and after and call it connected to GDC. Um summertime anytime during the summer so May to August even early September is summertime in the gaming and entertainment industries. Um that's when

22:50uh at least some subset of kids is home for a vacation. Uh and so um anytime during those months is a good time. Uh then you get into like fall and early school launches. Um and then you get into holiday launches which are also a big thing. So you can see that there there's never a bad time to launch a game. And you can run user acquisition um during any of those times. Now that's

23:16very different from when you launch a token. So um we do tell games if you are committed to having a token that's great. Um but don't think that the game and the token have to launch at the same time. In fact, most of the time we recommend that the game go with the game first. That way, you build additional strength in the community. Um, you have a loyal player base that is going to

23:38stick with you and anything that you throw their way, they're going to grab onto it. I mean, we have games that, um, we recently acquired. So, take NLE for instance. So, Nebula from NLE is a really great political strategy game. Um, it has crazy retention numbers, which is why we picked it up. It's also just a really, really great title. Uh and given the current environment, uh it

23:59has a really robust um player base. Uh but one thing that they did was they got some of their most loyal players to actually invest um in the company producing this game. Uh so this is straight equity investments. Um it's not even token. So you can see clearly there how crypto can improve this process. Um, but um, that's all to make the point that you want to shore up your player

24:23base and your community as much as possible in anticipation of a token launch. I do think that um, that is just a good practice to have regardless. Um, but the other thing is um, you um, guard against your community at token launch being filled with primarily degens who do not care about your game. That is another thing that killed Web3 gaming is the gamers were in there and then all of

24:50a sudden the discord was filled with people who were like, you know, like what is with this price action? And they're like, wait a second, you know, we're here to have fun with one another. Um, we're here to talk about game mechanics, maybe give each other tips on games. Like what is this obsessive talk about price action and incentives and, you know, like the typical DJ stuff

25:09that, um, people outside of crypto don't really understand. So um having a great community going into token launch I think will help um with your um cohesion um and the game cohesion uh as more and more people who are more cryptonative uh come into the game just because you you now have a token. Uh so lots of things to think through when a game launches.

25:33Um but one of the hallmarks at Saga is clearly like we think through a lot of these things and then anyone who works with us we give them the benefit of that knowledge. Yeah, I love that and I agree. I I I think that's totally the way to go is launching the game, building the community, and then people will be there for the game, not just for the token,

25:52which is an added value, but it can take away from the game if you launch it first or you focus or you bring a community that doesn't actually care as much about the game as they do about the token, which is needed within the game to be used. It all goes back to the game. So, um I'm glad that that's understood and communicated. And I think the the first few waves of web 3 games

26:14that focused on that and failed, the new games can learn from that in that they need to focus on the game. And although the token is very important, I also want to talk a little bit about that since we're focused on crypto finance and DeFi as well. Um, I know that there's DeFi applications that Saga is working with that have launched chainlets on the

26:35platform. And I remember back in our first video, there was a a staking and I think I even staked some saga because there was a bunch of airdrops that were coming um for different platforms that were launching. So can you talk about just the DeFi on saga and where the financebased applications are at right now? Yeah. So DeFi on saga was not possible prior to the launch of

26:57something we call liquidity integration layer um or little uh as we call it internally. So um uh the thing about uh Saga's architecture is we are a chain to launch chains which means that we are a natively multi-chain environment and um liquidity fragmentation is the problem with any natively multi-chain environment. It's great for scaling but it's not great for liquidity. Um you see

27:22this problem across Ethereum honestly. Um so with all the rollups the side chains L2s L3s etc that have been used to help Ethereum scale is complete liquidity fragmentation across the entire ecosystem. So we needed to solve for that within the saga and we have. So every single chain that exists and that gets stood up in the future is automatically going to have the

27:45bridging, the routing, the tooling necessary to have interoperability across all chainless and then out to any ecosystem that Sago bridges to. So you have immediate access to liquidity. Um we do have our own canonical decks now um which is unis swap v3 and um that is where the tokens on saga trade. Uh we are going to push two token launchpads out this month as well. So one is pure

28:11token and then the other is an AI agent um based launchpad. That's the chrono games that I mentioned. Um and then we are going to move on to other primitives. Um so we work very closely with the unis swap growth team. They have been amazing and um one of the huge benefits of using Uniswap is it's not just a really good DEX um but they have an ecosystem and they have built that

28:33out very successfully over the last few years. Um so we do have a lending protocol um that's going to come out in a couple months. Um we have um incentive distribution mechanisms that are going to be much more familiar to people um who come from the Ethereum community. Um so Ashton, you mentioned staking. Thank you um for being part of our staking community. That is sort of easier to do

28:56for anyone and everyone. You know, you have Saga tokens and then in your wallet there should be a staking function. Um but for anything having to um do with more uh more complicated DeFi operations like liquidity provisioning for instance um people need a little bit more education. They also like to stick to the channels that they are familiar with. So we are on boarding a couple of

29:17those. Um, we are also going to introduce PERPS on here after that. Um, so pretty much the entire DeFi ecosystem is going to get stood up over the course of Q2, um, which we're in right now heading into Q3. And it's an incredibly exciting time. So, what we tell the games is this. If you are a crypto native game, then you you understand um for the most part how um is it that more

29:43liquidity and a better DeFi ecosystem is going to ultimately help your game. For all the studios that are coming to us from traditional gaming, they have no idea about any of this. And so um it's a huge responsibility on our part um to make sure that we educate them properly and kind of take it a step at a time. You know, they don't have to boil the

30:02ocean. Um if they choose to to have a token, that's great. If they only want it for, you know, particular kinds of user acquisition that have to do with agents, um, that's fine, too. But we tell them to take it a step at a time. And they have a community. They have, um, money coming in. They are profitable game. So, while they are trying to improve um, their user acquisition using

30:24crypto rails, it's not like your game doesn't exist um, without it. So, I I do think that that encourages more sort of sustainable and long-term thinking um among these games, which is awesome. Um as they are understanding though what you can do with a token um and what's possible with DeFi, they're yeah um they're they're pretty jazzed. Um so, uh for the AI agent protocols that we work

30:50with, um I think I've mentioned Eliza already. We also work with virtuals. They're the ones who came up with the the actual AI agents that we debuted at GDC. Um and we will be working with Wayfinder um to make sure that these agents have access to DeFi. Um so it it takes a village of agents um you know in many ways it's the same dynamics as working with a team of people. Uh you

31:11need several in order to make something successful but it's it's very exciting. Yeah, that's really cool. And I I love that Saga has set up the environment for interoperability between the more importantly the liquidity aggregation and getting that TVL because as you said if there's different blockchains and layer ones layer twos and then you know there's LPing over here and DeFi and

31:38over here and it's like if that would just all work together everything would be cheaper and faster uh which is what we need to grow decentralized finance. beyond just the crypto dgens into traditional finance and in gaming as well. I think uh the when the gamers if you build out a game correctly and you have a great token in there and then the gamers realize they can do more than

32:03just sell the token like hey they could stake it they could put it in DeFi pools and there's other financial products that are available to them um you know decentralized that allow them to uh make money while they're they're playing the game and having fun. So it's very cool. Uh, I'm looking forward to more of these launches and the growth of the DeFi

32:21sector in Q2. As you said, I'll be following along with that because I have great personal interest in DeFi and great games as well. What is the best way to follow along with the launches of the games, the launchpads that you mentioned, and the other updates that are coming in DeFi and and everything with Saga? Yeah, so um, honestly, the definitive source is Twitter. Um, so our

32:44handle is saga xyz double at the end. Um, if you follow us there, then you will get all the major updates. Um, of course, uh, if you have any more detailed questions, Discord tends to be a better forum for that. You know, we don't, um, really get into the Q&A on Twitter very much. Um, but Discord is a very vibrant channel for us. Uh, yes, absolutely encourage you to, um, to join

33:07our Telegram as well. I will say less activity happens there. It's really focused on on Twitter and Discord. Um we do have a lot of content rolling out across our Tik Tok and our Insta. You have to um it's gaming and entertainment. Um so definitely encourage people to um go to those channels as well. Everything is available on our website um if you want

33:26to um go there as a reference point. So it's just saga.xyz. Um but yeah um we do uh make it a point to communicate uh as soon as we can about any new development that comes out. So any one of those channels should be good. Sounds great. Rebecca, thank you so much for your insights into gaming layer 1's defi. I'm going to put the social uh links into the show notes

33:49below and the saga.xyz platform so people can check it out. I'm looking forward to those next launches and the growth of gaming and DeFi as well. So, I will be following along and I would love to have you back on in the near future. Thanks so much, Ashton. Thanks for having me. Good to see you again.